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> On desktop, various Firefox updates would change my settings subtly and nag me about features I had no interest in

If Firefox suited my needs 100% as well as Safari, this is why I’d still not use it. God damn is it noisy. You’re a browser, I have no interest in engaging with you more than necessary, whatever-I-was-trying-to-do is what I care about. Please stop acting like a kid who’s not getting enough attention. It’s off-putting.

> God damn is it noisy

What is this noise you're referring to? I'm 90% Firefox and 10% Safari and I don't understand this comment.

I know what he's talking about. Firefox has constant nag screens. I just restarted Firefox and got two separate nags[1]. I am certain that within the next week it will nag me for at least one more thing. Maybe it'll want me to try Pocket, or sign in with a Mozilla account, or set up sync, or the absolute worst offender - when I launch the browser it will say "heyyyy I gotta update and I treat this like it's 1998 so you'll need to wait, and then I'll need to restart". Firefox is VERY naggy.

[1] https://imgur.com/a/dLr6E0C

Ok, but obviously in this case you can check the "Don't show me this message again" checkbox and, like me, you'll have had to endure the burden of responding to this nag just once in years of using Firefox.

I may be forgetting about nags that don't allow themselves to be disabled, but if so, they're infrequent enough that they seem insignificant and obviously non-memorable.

Edit: I should add, when I had to have Chrome installed I really didn't like the fact that it updated itself automatically via a daemon process. I don't think having a constantly running background process for a browser, especially one from a giant advertising company, is a good alternative.

> in this case you can check the "Don't show me this message again" checkbox

I had literally just installed Firefox minutes ago (inspired by this thread). During the install it asked me if I wanted to make it the default browser, and I had said no. This is what we mean by nagging. Firefox needs to know when to shut up and get out of the way.

> you'll have had to endure the burden of responding to this nag just once in years of using Firefox.

Twice. For this one particular nag. Next time Mozilla releases some shitty VPN or AI program, it will nag me again. If I don't log in to a Mozilla account, it will nag me to. If I don't try Pocket, I will be nagged to try it.

That's literally a dialog that every browser gives you after installing/on start if not permantly disabled (and there is a convenient button, there), and you are calling out FF? Also regarding pocket, as an almost exclusive FF user I didn't know what pocket was until some years ago when it was in the news, similarly Mozilla VPN I found out about through the news, not a single nag. This compared to lots of "the web works best in Chrome..." nags I got when visiting google websites over the years.

Let's not even talk about Apple and their dark patterns (the whole green bubble messages as one example).

This is after installing and after I had already said "no" during the install.

And Chrome does this too. They want you to know about new features, and they're easy to dismiss.

The only reason Safari doesn't is because they aren't developing it because it's too broken already. So much doesn't work with Safari.

That's just comically false.

Safari is under active development, gets new features all the time, and has a dev blog you can subscribe to over RSS [0].

You may not like Safari, and you're welcome to your opinion about it, but you're not welcome to your own facts.

[0] https://webkit.org/blog/

Maybe his personal experience was how he learned that Safari doesn't work with several websites.

Well, Firefox hasn't nagged me in a long time and you've just installed it, so why not give it a try for a while?

> shitty VPN

The Mozilla VPN is a rebranded Mullvad VPN, AFIK which I understand is very good.

Even if there are a few more nags than Chrome or whatever, I guess, I'm happy knowing that I'm making it a bit harder for Google to know what I'm doing online.

Me as well. Firefox doesn't annoy me with any popups. I've used it for 5 years now as my daily driver on windows and macOS. Sure, I've gotten maybe TWO popups in that time asking me to try the VPN, but I honestly can't think of any other popups that genuinely annoyed me. Compared with Chrome it is a clear winner.

Firefox for many versions now has no way to disable update notification messages, which will repeatedly appear as a popup from the addressbar on every launch, unless one creates a new file with particular content.

Even if one wants a particular version for testing. Chromium doesn't do this ime. And this isn't to say it's a reason not to use FF but it is a counter-example to simply being able to dismiss something without it being annoying.

Not just every launch, but also if you leave it long enough, it'll pop up again during the same session. This was what made me finally uninstall it.

And while Firefox has lots of flags and ways to tweak things like this, it's not straightforward and requires time to interrupt my workflow to address. Definitely not worth it for me on macOS. I might change my tune if I switch to Linux, but at that point I'll likely look into something like LibreWolf.

This is asking you to make it the default browser, like every other browser does. How is that noisier?

I have found it quite easy to turn those features and their accompanying nagging off. I do it precisely once when I set up on a new OS install and never see them again after updates. Never understood these stories.

I don't know if it's the same "noise", but for a period of months I used an extension that replaced the New Tab page. When you do this with Firefox it pops up a notification the first new tab you open each session stating "your new tab has changed, keep settings?" I mean, I installed the extension to change the new tab page, so presumably I wouldn't need to be asked a second time.

The noisy part was this notification steals focus so you can't type into the search bar immediately, you have to hit escape or click out to gain focus again. And the popup kept appearing until I realized you had to specifically press "yes, keep changes" on the notification to get it to stop (usually I canceled out of it reflexively to do actually important things). If you just hit Escape or tried to use the URL bar it would come back next session and steal focus again.

It sounds like something minor but the idea of stealing focus to re-confirm a change you already confirmed is a mild source of headaches, and not necessary in my view. Not to mention, this process would repeat itself for every Firefox installation synced with, since the extension counts as a fresh install each time. In a world where switching browsers is trivial, I think minor annoyances like those are best removed.

There was this, a couple months ago:

Firefox displayed a pop-up ad for Mozilla VPN over an unrelated page (382 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36077360

I tabbed away from Firefox for a bit, and when I tabbed back I had a full screen popup ad for Mozilla VPN overlayed on top of the webpage I had been using.

I kinda do. Safari feels very much like a simplistic browser, but a damn good one, except when it's not. Firefox tried to do a lot, tons of features baked in, Safari outsources a lot to the operating system and as a result the interface and interaction becomes simpler, but less flexible.

The primary reason I don't use it 100%, but 90/10 like you, is due to extensions and those few sites that doesn't work in Firefox.

> Safari outsources a lot to the operating system and as a result the interface and interaction becomes simpler, but less flexible.

Yes, definitely agree with that. But I think of "noise" as stuff that interrupts your normal interaction with web sites and in that regard I don't think Firefox is particularly noisy.

There are definitely a lot of features, settings and extensions with Firefox and while I don't use very many of them I do really appreciate the ones that I do use.

And much of the “noisiness” stems from tooltips, popups, etc explaining changes and additions. I can see where some users might want those but it should be possible to disable those entirely, or at least make them more “quiet” (e.g. a notification icon with red news count pip on the new tab screen where changes can be seen at the user's leisure).

Once every three months, one gets an upgrade tab showing release notes. Upon occasion (and I mean, occasion, not regularly) they may try a new feature like Sync, save for later, etc.

Once I get the browser installed and running, what you describe matches 0% of my experience with it.

Google and Apple get to engage you frequently all the time for free. You have no choice in the matter. Every surface is theirs.

Firefox doesn’t need to get me to “engage” when I’m already in their browser.

Firefox needs to make money.

That’s why I have to change the default search engine.

Most of what they’re nagging me about won’t even make them money. It’s marketing-changelog pages nobody reads. They could save some money by keeping text change logs where people who care can find them, and dropping those altogether.

Indeed, their CEO wants her fat paycheck.[1]

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitchell_Baker#Negative_salary...

She needs to go. 100% of the money should go to engineering and (actually skilled and focused) product people.

It's been a long time since I've had a fresh install of ff (I do recall some notification bars in the window you have to close out), but as a very longtime user, I have no idea what you're talking about...example?

They pop new tabs, little “hint” boxes, et c, all the time. It’s the kind of thing that’s easy to become blind to as a power user (but is annoying if you do notice it), but that murders UX for lots of folks.

Unless you mean the random tabs when an extension e.g. tampermonkey gets updated and shows a change log I don't think I've seen what you mentioned. Definitely nothing "all the time".

Been using it since quantum, it happens after some updates, recently there was some modal about some feature I didn’t care about, and I had to click twice to close it. That was only a few weeks ago.

chrome has to be worse. now there's that ad privacy option that you have to remember to change

Firefox is not my primary browser on macOS for similar reasons. Given how similar iOS is to macOS I wouldn’t expect the situation to be much different with a hypothetical Gecko-based version of Firefox for iOS — the performance and efficiency isn’t quite there compared to WebKit-based stuff.

There’s platform-agnostic issues too, however. Firefox is my primary browser on Windows and Linux, but it has a pile of UI papercuts which I’ve kinda-fixed with userchrome.css hacks, and the result is underwhelming (as is the possibility of these hacks periodically breaking with updates). It’s enough of a frustration that forking Firefox to properly fix them would be tempting if keeping up with the firehose of security patches from mainline weren’t so daunting.

My biggest wish is for Gecko to re-gain embedding support on desktop platforms so I can build my own browser around it, making keeping it secure as simple as updating dependencies.

Safari is much smoother on my Mac. I was recently running a very compute intensive script. Firefox was dropping frames so badly that the UI became nearly unusable. In contrast, Safari was still a buttery smooth 120fps.

Combine this with the fact that I still get E2EE sync and better integration with my OS, Firefox is no longer tempting to me. And I used to be a Firefox power user for years.

For me, the enhanced plugin ecosystem and additional control that Firefox offers simply isn't worth a slower browser that isn't as well integrated.

I use Firefox on macOS as my primary browser it’s great no complaints at all.

Same here, using basically nothing but FF for maybe 6 years or so.

I somehow was lugging around up to 2,400 tabs for much of last year and it handled it surprisingly well. Got down to 30 at one point, now back up to nearly 400 :/

Very rarely a website won't load, I just change the user agent to Chrome and refresh and it almost always works fine.

similarly, on mac this bug is a showstopper for me, so I'm using Brave currently: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1149826

(the bug is that text replacement does not work in FF on mac, something that saves me so much time daily)

My main Problem is that fn+E won't open the emoji picker.

I have to go to another app, insert an emoji there and copy it over.

I tried switching to Firefox like 3 times this year, but there's always something putting me off. I really really want to though.

If this is on macOS, what about ⌘ ^ SPC to get the emoji picker?

Nothing happens.

But sometimes, it "works" but there's no opening animation and it instantly runs the closing animation of the pop up and it's gone again.

It's really weird.

Sometimes fn+E does work, but it writes an unwanted "e".

On macOS, the most annoying thing for me is the inability to use the native login to authenticate to apple web services. I have to type in my apple ID, my password, and then the code sent to one of my devices every time. On chrome and safari, I can just use my fingerprint or laptop password and done.

Yes. This bug makes the UX on mac just feel broken and frustrating reminds you every time you do it. Tried to bear it for a year but I use text replacements so heavily that I had to switch off eventually. Firefox: for the love of Jobs, fix it!

I had to stop using Safari for development when I discovered the cache wasn’t clearing, even when I asked it to. That was a few years ago, and frankly, I’ve never looked back.

I don't know what browser you've tried, but it certainly is not Firefox Quantum. That browser in my experience is on par with Chrome's performance.

Legitimately curious. Considering Firefox Quantum was released in 2017, is it even possible that my M1 is running any other version of Firefox? Doesn't seem likely considering the copy on the Mozilla site [1] for Firefox Quantum:

> Firefox Quantum was a revolution in Firefox development. In 2017, we created a new, lightning fast browser that constantly improves. Firefox Quantum is the Firefox Browser.

[1]: https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/browsers/quantum/

Firefox has shipped Quantum in mainline for years. It may be on Chrome's level (I never tested), but regardless, it's nowhere near as performant as Safari.

Try running a very compute intensive script (that chokes your CPU/GPU). In my experience Firefox becomes unusable, Safari is still buttery smooth.

Now maybe Safari simply performs better, or maybe that's some OS level prioritization unfairly advantaging Safari, but to me as an end user, that's irrelevant.

I seem to be the only one, but I swipe to go back one website, and Safari for some reason shows the old website but freezes for 1-2 seconds.

Using Safari on Apple’s stuff seems fine. What really matters is not supporting the chrome-alike push toward monopoly.

> I've certainly tried: Firefox Focus was my main iOS browser for a few years (I know it's Webkit-based)

TL;DR The truth is, no one has ever used Firefox or Chrome on iOS.

You say you know it's webkit based... but the entire engine for any browser on iOS is Safari, not merely webkit based. Apple doesn't have a policy of "your browser must be derived from webkit" they have a policy of forcing browsers to use the literal same engine built into iOS that Safari is using - i.e you are just using Safari with a different UI, there is only one browser engine on iOS.

This is an annoying detail to have to repetitively explain to people, and Apple benefits from this blurring of the lines in the army of users defending them for browser diversity. Honestly, if i had an iOS device I would use the Safari app - and as a web dev and a user I fucking hate Safari, but what's the point in using a different UI, they are all the Safari engine, the main browsing experience is by definition the exact same.

Exactly. I use Safari and I hate it, but Firefox is just a reskin with a worse WebView.

Weird, I have very little problems with Firefox on macos. I had performance issues with Chrome for big tables. Firefox was sluggish, but Chrome took 30s to render it (about 3000 rows, 300 columns). I ended up writing something that displays a small view of the table using absolute positioned divs which depend on the scroll bar. Now it works smoothly on all browsers (including some older tablet). It was not a simple workaround, though.

Orion is also webkit, but buggy, isn't it? I don't care for it.

Firefox proper is available for Mac but remember that on iOS the "firefox" is not using its own browser engine and there are not any add-ons available.

I use Librewolf and Orion on MacOS, Orion on iOS/iPadOS (which is Safari I suppose, but the shell is awesome)

I’ve tried using Orion but I found it very slow and does not work fully as it should with a single chrome plugin I tried. Back to Safari!

Orion was extremely buggy for me which is a shame, I was looking forward to the extensions and being able to use touchID.

I've had one too many times where Firefox crashed and I lost all my tabs. Then had to go through weird steps to recover them. Too much annoyance. Just use Safari now, happy as a clam.

Somewhat off topic, but thank you for putting into code what has been floating around in my imagination since high school. I haven't tested your project yet, but I really do hope that AI assisted roleplaying becomes a mainstay in the game development world. I got a taste when toying around with AI dungeon, and if this isn't the the next step in meaningful interactive storytelling, then I don't know what is.

I use Waterfox on Mac and it is great. Safari is slow in comparison and the only thing that leads me to use it is integration with TouchID.

Same, it's simply easier to use Safari on my phone and Mac. The performance is fantastic, syncing is perfect, and switching between the two devices is effortless.

If I used windows or Linux I would probably give it a try again.

I also love having the Apple Pay and automatic SMS OTP integration. Those got me to start using Safari again from FF, and the only thing I'm really missing is uBlock Origin (Adguard is doing okay in its place)

Not to mention on iOS your choices are really between Safari and Safari with a different skin.

No, on iOS the choice is between Safari + Plugins (official Safari) and Safari w/o Plugins (Chrome, Brave)

Brave on iOS is a, more or less, perfect Youtube Player. I haven't seen ads in months and it just works while also supporting the download of videos and creation of local playlists.

Oh yes, I totally agree (and I hinted on this in my other comment here). Brave on iOS is a blessing.

The YouTube app is also a perfect YouTube player, so I’m confused…

I haven’t used the official YouTube app, but I seriously doubt it’s ad-free and that it lets you download videos.

It does both, actually!

Are you saying that, by default and without any account, the official YouTube iOS app does not display ads? Then why are there so many alternative frontends which have ad blocking as a feature and Reddit is littered with threads asking how to block ads in the app?

Nope, the question was whether or not the YouTube app played video without ads and allowed downloads. It does both.

It only does it if you have a paid account, which is clearly not what the original commenter was referring to.

It’s your prerogative to not block ads and to spoon feed all your watch data to Google for easy monetisation and tracking, but it’s clear the original comment wasn’t talking about that route. YouTube is clearly not “the perfect app” in that person’s view when it requires an extra paid service and a higher loss of privacy.

Frankly, from your other replies it seems like you realise this. Which makes this exchange a massive waste of time for everyone. Please don’t purposely fuel disagreements.

What I realize is the content you’re so brazenly feeling entitled to cost money to produce, and the idea that your loss of privacy justifies your theft is absurd.

You’re not starving, this isn’t food.

The only absurd thing is your assumptions about other people. You have zero idea if I even watch YouTube, which creators I support or how, or what my feelings are on the matter.

Understand that I’m not advocating for not supporting creators, that argument is entirely in your head. No one is after you.

The position that what I said is in any way problematic is the position that creators should not be paid for their work, whether you understand that or not.

More importantly, you need to learn what the “royal you” is. It’s not literally about you, specifically.

> The position that what I said is in any way problematic

That’s not what was said either. You keep putting arguments in other people’s mouths and assuming the worst version possible.

Unfortunately it has become clear there is no point to this discussion. You’re bent on only rambling about the point in your own head instead of what was being discussed.

I wish you a happy new year, but I do not wish to further this interaction.

…what? The conversation is happening in front of anyone reading this. Bold of you to try to gaslight over text. Unlikely to be effective, but very brave! I’d be happy for you if your behavior weren’t so blatantly manipulative.

Merry whatever though, hope things go better for you than they did in this interaction.

Under the assumption that you have an account and have paid for Premium, right?

Yes, with both the app performs as described. Nobody has thus far come in the night to snatch me for watching unapproved content, and the $8/mo seems like the least I could do to support the product and the creators on the platform.

Ah, so now you're packing being a student on top of it all. So, let's reiterate: Brave vs. App + Account + Subscription + Student subsidy. Anything else?

Yes, App + Registration to + Pay for the content I consume as a + student who is literally assigned videos to watch (TED, SciShow). Seems fair to me.

Or should I be stealing this content and leave everyone involved poorer for it?

I have had a lot of success with Orion on iOS. I can use both Firefox and chrome extensions, all on my iPhone. It seems like even YouTube works better in Orion than in Safari.