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Comment by rayiner | Hacker News Reader

> We hope the workcation visa will allow high-earning foreigners to stay in Korea's various regions and vitalize the local economy," the Justice Ministry said in a statement. "We hope the visa will be an opportunity for us to showcase our country and our culture.

I love the forthrightness. “Come here, spend your money, then leave.”

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That’s the point of every economic visa. Bring value; maybe we let you stay (golden visa or long term residency with potential conversion to citizenship eventually), maybe we ask you to leave eventually.

Or a tourist visa: come for a short while, then go, leave your money here.

And it can be a win for both sides.

Life isn’t zero sum.

And find a partner, and enlist your son in the military while you’re at it!

It's OK. They have mandatory military service, so he wouldn't have a choice on the matter anyway.

But almost no kids to join with 0.70 births per woman. They should think of a foreign legion visa. Or maybe the digital nomads could be made to join.

Oh they don’t want you to marry anyone, then you might stay. Also—on average—Koreans aren’t super cool with marrying foreigners. A close family friend was only able to marry an American on condition of them not having kids.

> A close family friend was only able to marry an American on condition of them not having kids.

Koreans aren't having kids to begin with, maybe they don't want to break the trend.

It seems South Koreans in aren't comfortable with having kids in general. It's much better to dedicate your life to making shareholders of Samsung, or some other soulless megacorporation richer. That's how you get one of the world's lowest birth rates.

An economy based around subsidizing rectangles of entertainment for the world didn't turn out to be sustainable in the end.

The rest of the West is subsidizing ‘stock numba go up’ and is on the same trajectory, with falling birthrates.

Koreans are just good at what they do, always ahead of the curve.

In contrast with Thailand, where a surprising number of their leading movie and TV actors (and actresses... have we fully retired that word yet?) are biracial. My extended family in Bangkok keep complimenting my three half-Thai kids on the bridges of their noses being high enough to keep designer sunglasses up off of their cheek bones. (Edit: at first, I was confused about "big nose" being a compliment. Most Western fashion brands don't account for/have special models for East Asians typically having higher cheek bones and smaller noses, resulting in sunglasses that never quite fit and hover above the nose.)

I think part of it is economic, but I like to think a good part of it is that Thailand has been a meeting ground for centuries. First, it was a meeting place between Chinese and Middle Eastern merchants, and later Europeans when they started to cut out the Middle Eastern middlemen. Still later, Thailand was a neutral buffer state between British (Burma/Myanmar) and French (Vietnam) empires. Neither Britain nor France attempted to take over the buffer state, as it would have caused the other empire to immediately invade. Thailand was never strong enough to have full control over its affairs, but managed to turn that into its niche as a neutral middle ground.

With Korea having one of the worst population pyramids of all the countries in the world, this problem will solve itself one way or another eventually.

> Koreans aren’t super cool with marrying foreigners. A close family friend was only able to marry an American on condition of them not having kids.

This was a family request? Or government?

I think your view of Korean culture is outdated, probably because your Korean friend is second or third generation Korean American. (Many of those people tend to keep facets of Korean culture from when they emigrated. Considering that Korea in the 1950s was little better than Afghanistan now, the difference can be huge.)

In 2022, 8.7% of all marriages in Korea were between a Korean and a foreigner. Modern Koreans are not strangers to the idea of marrying foreigners.

* Also, if I were you, I'd advise your friend to tell their family to get lost. I did see parents objecting to their kids' marriages, but telling them not to have kids is a weekend K-drama level of shitty behavior.

First generation, but older, so maybe it's changed. But Korea's foreign-born population is just 4.4% as of 2022. So what are the nature of these marriages? Would it be socially acceptable for a high class person?

> lso, if I were you, I'd advise your friend to tell their family to get lost. I did see parents objecting to their kids' marriages, but telling them not to have kids is a weekend K-drama level of shitty behavior.

Marriages are between families. They get a say, especially when inheritances are at issue.

> Would it be socially acceptable for a high class person?

One nice side effect of Korea's tumultuous 20th century is that old social hierarchy mostly collapsed, because everything burned down. Hyundai's founder was famously a son of a peasant. You could be literally a great-great-great-grandson of the last king and your friends would be like "Oh really? Cool story bro."

So I don't think the question is applicable at all, unless we're talking about a handful of ultra-riches - who knows what they are thinking.

"High" or "Low" class to probably most of the visitors here has nothing to do with royalty anyway.

The old social hierarchy burned down yes but that doesn't mean a new one didn't rise up to take its place.

Important government officials/Politicians, Chaebols, Celebrities, the wealthy. These are the new High Class and who the question was aimed at.

> A close family friend was only able to marry an American on condition of them not having kids

Wow. To me this sounds worse than not being allowed to marry at all.

Great! Not every visa granted needs to be permanent residence. Korea doesn’t need foreigners pushing up already difficult home prices. This is a cool program and they haven’t offered so many benefits it’ll be hard to cut off one day if it causes negative economic effects

Hey, and if the immigrant has a mixed kid during that stay they could really use it.

korea’s birth rate is super low, I’m somewhat surprised they don’t want more high income people staying permanently

Korea (and Japan) are notoriously xenophobic. They simply (as a general cultural characteristic) don't want people of different races settling permanently in their country.

I don’t think “xenophobic” is the correct word. They’re not afraid or contemptuous of individual foreigners. (Unlike say the French, or Middle Easterners.) At least in Tokyo, they seem to like tourists. But they have a strong sense of having their country, with its distinct ethnic and cultural identity, while other people have their countries.

I get that that's not what you meant by "Middle Easterners" but for what it's worth I think most foreigners would find themselves feeling quite welcome in Israel, as most people would feel happy that you decided to come here and want to make sure you have a good time and leave with a positive impression.

Most but not all. Every country has its xenophobes.

https://www.americamagazine.org/politics-society/2023/06/29/...

Perhaps it depends on which culture defines the word "xenophobia". Mere prejudice is sufficient according to one definition[1], which is indeed still evident in Korea. Also, attitudes towards foreigners are perhaps harder to hide when such foreigners stay longer (e.g. for the purpose of residency, not just tourism).

[1] https://www.oed.com/search/dictionary/?scope=Entries&q=xenop...

I don't know about Koreans. But I don't think the Japanese "dislike" foreign cultures. They have a strong sense of and preference for their own culture.

They seem pretty outright racist the way they do all they can to politely avoid interacting with non Japanese people.

In a high context society, it’s a lot of work to interact with people outside your culture: https://study.com/learn/lesson/high-context-culture-definiti....

I'm not even talking about interacting. They even try to avoid sitting next to dirty foreigners on the bus or train.

Don't make excuses for racism.

I suspect you’re mistaking not wanting/being able to speak English for not wanting to interact with non-Japanese people.

Reality is most Japanese aren’t competent English speakers and find the prospect of speaking it stressful.

Speak (decent) Japanese and you’ll have a very different experience.

> I suspect you’re mistaking not wanting/being able to speak English for not wanting to interact with non-Japanese people.

Language doesn't have to do anything with it, it's more base than that. On a crowded subway for example, Japanese people won't want to sit near a white person or might get up and move if you sit near them.

People here avoid sitting near everyone. If you have 5 bags of stuff(cause that what tourists do), or even if you are overweight (something not that common here, and space-wise is a wise decision) then even worse.

But I don't think you are trying to have a conversation here, than just trying to push "facts" you read on reddit.

Not overweight and no bags at all. And it's one thing if they were already sitting and then get up if you sit next to them, but were fine sitting next to other Japanese. They are not exactly subtle about it.

I'm not trying to push anything, just recounting my own experiences.

> They’re not afraid or contemptuous of individual foreigners.

For Japan, superficially, perhaps, because this would violate rules of decorum, but in reality, no, people are quite hostile to foreigners, especially non-Western foreigners. Being openly racist toward Chinese or Korean immigrants is considered perfectly acceptable. Discrimination in employment, access to housing, healthcare and service by businesses on the basis of country of origin is also common. Despite being technically illegal under the Japanese constitution, there is little to no protection of these rights, outside individual lawsuits.

You could say the same thing about most American Nationalists.

"We like our country the way we like it but ya'll foreigners are more than welcome to join us for supper."

I think the xenophobia of small town Americans is overstated. That said, it’s different because America is an individualist society. In a society where everyone is an island, it’s harder to explain why you care about someone with a different culture moving next door. By contrast in more collectivist societies, everyone is expected to follow the same norms and behave the same way, so people with disparate cultures moving in does actually create an imposition on everyone else.

An interesting story about Japan. I know someone who is ethnically Japanese, but who was raised in America and moved to Japan as an adult. He remarked he gets a lot of flak because he looks like he should know the rules, but doesn’t. It’s really not about “xenophobia.” It’s about having an orderly society where everyone knows the same rules and adheres to the same culture.

> It’s about having an orderly society where everyone knows the same rules and adheres to the same culture.

It's about discouraging and punishing individualism which is bonkers.

That’s a very American viewpoint. I think individualism should be punished. It’s why everything in America that requires social cooperation (public transit, government, etc.) is so shitty. Even just walking down the street—I nearly had a panic attack taking the New York subway the other day because of all the individualism.

> That’s a very American viewpoint.

Not really. It's the viewpoint of most cultures throughout history.

> I think individualism should be punished.I think individualism should be punished.

Individualism allows for innovation and creativity.

> I nearly had a panic attack taking the New York subway the other day because of all the individualism.

This is a shame. Were you raised in Japan?

> Not really. It's the viewpoint of most cultures throughout history.

Most cultures do not value individualism. It's not even universal to Americans, historically.

> Individualism allows for innovation and creativity.

So what? It doesn't allow for an orderly society that's pleasant to live in.

> This is a shame. Were you raised in Japan?

No, just a tourist who has eyes and can see what shit holes American cities are in comparison. I was raised in Virginia. At least there, at that time, Christianity still functioned as a check on American individualism. Unfortunately that has collapsed.

Most cultures absolutely do. Japanese culture is teh exception not the rule.

> So what? It doesn't allow for an orderly society that's pleasant to live in.

Of course it does. Those two things are not mutually exclusive at all. Unless you take one of them way too far like the Japanese do, with no discernible benefit.

> No, just a tourist who has eyes and can see what shit holes American cities are in comparison.

That's not because of individualism, that's because of corruption, lack of regulation and enforcement, wealth disparity etc. Other western countries with the same focus on individualism have very nice and clean cities.

> Christianity still functioned as a check on American individualism. Unfortunately that has collapsed.

The sooner any and all religions become forgotten, the better we will all be for it.

> Most cultures absolutely do. Japanese culture is teh exception not the rule.

By what measure? Most of the world is African and Asian, and those cultures are not individualistic.

> Of course it does. Those two things are not mutually exclusive at all. Unless you take one of them way too far like the Japanese do, with no discernible benefit.

The Japanese system produces tremendous benefits: an orderly society where everyone behaves according to rules.

> That's not because of individualism, that's because of corruption, lack of regulation and enforcement, wealth disparity etc.

Japan has corruption, wealth disparity, etc., as well. That isn't the thing that makes it different. Every society has those forces. Individualism just makes it harder to build a nice society in spite of them.

> Other western countries with the same focus on individualism have very nice and clean cities.

Most western countries aren't as individualistic as America. They're different than Asia, which is based on strong family networks, but it's not the worship of self that prevails in America: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante.

> The sooner any and all religions become forgotten, the better we will all be for it.

I wouldn't hold my breath, given that the world is becoming more religious: https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/aug/27/religion-why-is.... Christianity was the glue holding American society together, and now that's breaking down we are seeing the consequences.

> By what measure? Most of the world is African and Asian, and those cultures are not individualistic.

They're certainly not at all anti-individualistic in the way Japan is.

> The Japanese system produces tremendous benefits: an orderly society where everyone behaves according to rules.

That's not something unique to Japan and the cost is too high. Japan also has numerous problems as a society.

> Individualism just makes it harder to build a nice society in spite of them.

That's honestly complete nonsense, as evidenced by every other nice society that isn't antagonistic towards individualism.

> Most western countries aren't as individualistic as America.

They're a hell of a lot closer to the US than Japan.

> given that the world is becoming more religious

It's really not. More and more people are questioning the faith they are born into and atheism is on the rise.

> Christianity was the glue holding American society together, and now that's breaking down we are seeing the consequences.

It's a fairy tale without evidence behind it, it would never survive long in an information age.

If we relied on individualists for everything we would still have no sewage system or water supply. Famously British parliament refused to fund a sewage system until they were tortured with stench for months.

Extreme individualism leads to societal collapse. In fact the concept of society means there are some limits on individualism.

The other day I saw a bigger toddler kicking a smaller toddler in a museum, with no parents in sight, and no one was willing to intervene until my wife did. People just look at their feet and ignore the issue.

There's a difference in punishing individual expression and freedom, and ignoring something bad going on. Cultures like Japan's punish people for wanting to veer away from the family expectations/role in any way. It's ridiculous and anachronistic.

Ignoring family expectations and social roles is "something bad." Why do you think you are special, and need to do something different than everyone else does?

> Why do you think you are special, and need to do something different than everyone else does?

People should be free to follow their desires within reason, not forced into a mold because people were indoctrinated into thinking it was necessary.

Sounds like a fair trade for both partners

Is it?

As a digital nomad (well... a potential one) these visas are great, but they don't let me do anything I couldn't do on a tourist visa. Of course it's a lot more advantageous if you're not a privileged national.

But what's in it for the Korean people? They get a small number of relatively wealthy visitors who use housing and infrastructure but don't pay taxes. They likely spend less than other tourists, and use more resources.

In Germany, the freelance visa requires "local economic interest", which translates to having German clients or a reason to work from Germany. Digital nomad visas seem to want the opposite.

Korea is a consumerist society where economic activity is stimulated by massive consumption.

It works differently than Germany for example.

I'd like to see the numbers on that - Korea produces lots and lots of widgets.

I was answering the question wha's in it for Korean people. Couple of wealthy nomads are not a drain for korean economy instead they benefit the people as 2/3 of koreans are self employed and will greatly benefit from increased consumption.

Can you work on a tourist visa? Obviously nobody's going to know if you get on zoom, but official sanction to work in country seems like a distinction.

Additionally with their population trendline I can imagine that Korea will be happy to have even more tourists, especially ones who stay longer. Residents are maybe preferable but I don't know that they're mutually exclusive

It's highly country- and work- dependent.

I work in a highly regulated industry (finance), where employers are very sensitive about remoting in from other jurisdictions. Under my previous employer, I wasn't allowed to remote in from Thailand under a tourist visa, but (pre-full-invasion) I was allowed to remote in from Ukraine on a tourist visa as long as I went nowhere near Crimea or the Donbas. (I requested official clarification about remote work on a tourist visa in Ukraine, and got back a somewhat bemused response basically "Why on earth would we care, as long as your work is fully remote and you get out within 90 days? Did I miss some detail that would make us at all interested?")

Plenty of people in Thailand do illegally work fully remotely on tourist visas, and the government seems to turn a blind eye at present, as long as nobody is causing trouble. I looked into Thailand's digital nomad visa, but it would have required my employer to have a presence in Thailand. My employer at the time had no employees in Thailand, and apparently my employer's P.O. Box in Bangkok wasn't sufficient for a nomad visa. I had enough seniority at my previous company that they might have considered sub-contracting my work out to me via a Thai company owned by my wife, but it would have required pulling in a lot of favors and probably getting some partner-level approvals.

Not really but everyone does.

I mean what's the difference between a tourist with a laptop and a digital nomad? If you have no local clients, no local space and you officially reside elsewhere, it doesn't really matter.

Staying longer only makes sense if you grow economic roots too. You can't have a village with only digital nomads. Their taxes don't build bridges or create a community.

Tourist visa is not meant for working?

If you're at customs and asked what your plans in the country are, you should not say "work", unless you are authorized to work in the country.

Right, but... we violate that all the time. If I'm abiding by the other terms of the tourist visa (90/180 days, e.g.), and all the work that I do is for a company in my home country, paid by that company in my home country bank account, and occupies about an hour a day max, I don't think it violates the spirit of the law (the letter of the law is, of course, subject to judicial interpretation).

Is it a violation of my tourist visa to take a phone call from work when I'm on vacation?

The big benefit is the prolonged duration of the visa that allows you to really settle in and live there for a while.

They let you work in the country legally. Working on a tourist visa is not allowed outside a handful of exceptions, and most digital nomads just hope to not get caught

One obvious advantage would be the length of time you can stay in the country.

For Korea obviously the advantages are the same as tourism.

> but don't pay taxes

most goods have VAT there, so this is not entirely true, i guess you mean income tax.

2 years is huge. Being legitimately there is huge.

1. Right now you can be a "tourist" and have to leave/re-enter every 3 months. So things like renting an apartment for a year become out of the question, since SK could arbitrarily not let you re-enter. So you're stuck with the whims of hostel / airbnb owners.

2. Being a "tourist", you can't open a bank account or get a legit phone number. So you can't verify on Naver, which means you can't do things like book appointments for businesses that use Naver (which a lot of them do). You can't use KakaoPay without it either, so exchanging money with South Koreans means resorting to bitcoin which is just tedious.

Renting an apartment in Korea usually requires a consistent deposit (which you get back when you leave).

I can only speak for Japan but it makes a huge difference being able to rent an apartment for a year for a fraction of a price of hotels/airbnb, and also get a proper Japanese phone number which is practically a requirement for all kinds of interactions here.

Not to mention having a full year instead of having to do a visa run every 3 months and risk being rejected.

This is very good insight, thank you

It's more like

“Come here, spend your money, enjoy our services and everything we built in the last centuries, then leave.”

And take what you've discovered back to your home country. This is why migration is economic warfare on the origin countries.

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