Korea to welcome 'digital nomads' with new visa starting Jan. 1
koreajoongangdaily.joins.com
koreajoongangdaily.joins.com
> The visa requires applicants to have an annual income double the amount of Korea's gross national income (GNI) per capita for the previous year.
> Korea's GNI per capita was 42.48 million won ($33,000) as of 2022, requiring those applying for the visa to have an annual income of 84.96 million won.
Today's google forex rate: 84,960,000 South Korean Won = 65,487.17 US Dollar[1] https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Remote-Salary#Yearly
[1] https://dynamitejobs.com/continent/remote-jobs-in-europe
Just 0.7% off "double $33,000"...
I love the forthrightness. “Come here, spend your money, then leave.”
Koreans aren't having kids to begin with, maybe they don't want to break the trend.
Koreans are just good at what they do, always ahead of the curve.
I think part of it is economic, but I like to think a good part of it is that Thailand has been a meeting ground for centuries. First, it was a meeting place between Chinese and Middle Eastern merchants, and later Europeans when they started to cut out the Middle Eastern middlemen. Still later, Thailand was a neutral buffer state between British (Burma/Myanmar) and French (Vietnam) empires. Neither Britain nor France attempted to take over the buffer state, as it would have caused the other empire to immediately invade. Thailand was never strong enough to have full control over its affairs, but managed to turn that into its niche as a neutral middle ground.
This was a family request? Or government?
In 2022, 8.7% of all marriages in Korea were between a Korean and a foreigner. Modern Koreans are not strangers to the idea of marrying foreigners.
* Also, if I were you, I'd advise your friend to tell their family to get lost. I did see parents objecting to their kids' marriages, but telling them not to have kids is a weekend K-drama level of shitty behavior.
> lso, if I were you, I'd advise your friend to tell their family to get lost. I did see parents objecting to their kids' marriages, but telling them not to have kids is a weekend K-drama level of shitty behavior.
Marriages are between families. They get a say, especially when inheritances are at issue.
One nice side effect of Korea's tumultuous 20th century is that old social hierarchy mostly collapsed, because everything burned down. Hyundai's founder was famously a son of a peasant. You could be literally a great-great-great-grandson of the last king and your friends would be like "Oh really? Cool story bro."
So I don't think the question is applicable at all, unless we're talking about a handful of ultra-riches - who knows what they are thinking.
The old social hierarchy burned down yes but that doesn't mean a new one didn't rise up to take its place.
Important government officials/Politicians, Chaebols, Celebrities, the wealthy. These are the new High Class and who the question was aimed at.
Wow. To me this sounds worse than not being allowed to marry at all.
As a digital nomad (well... a potential one) these visas are great, but they don't let me do anything I couldn't do on a tourist visa. Of course it's a lot more advantageous if you're not a privileged national.
But what's in it for the Korean people? They get a small number of relatively wealthy visitors who use housing and infrastructure but don't pay taxes. They likely spend less than other tourists, and use more resources.
In Germany, the freelance visa requires "local economic interest", which translates to having German clients or a reason to work from Germany. Digital nomad visas seem to want the opposite.
It works differently than Germany for example.
Additionally with their population trendline I can imagine that Korea will be happy to have even more tourists, especially ones who stay longer. Residents are maybe preferable but I don't know that they're mutually exclusive
I work in a highly regulated industry (finance), where employers are very sensitive about remoting in from other jurisdictions. Under my previous employer, I wasn't allowed to remote in from Thailand under a tourist visa, but (pre-full-invasion) I was allowed to remote in from Ukraine on a tourist visa as long as I went nowhere near Crimea or the Donbas. (I requested official clarification about remote work on a tourist visa in Ukraine, and got back a somewhat bemused response basically "Why on earth would we care, as long as your work is fully remote and you get out within 90 days? Did I miss some detail that would make us at all interested?")
Plenty of people in Thailand do illegally work fully remotely on tourist visas, and the government seems to turn a blind eye at present, as long as nobody is causing trouble. I looked into Thailand's digital nomad visa, but it would have required my employer to have a presence in Thailand. My employer at the time had no employees in Thailand, and apparently my employer's P.O. Box in Bangkok wasn't sufficient for a nomad visa. I had enough seniority at my previous company that they might have considered sub-contracting my work out to me via a Thai company owned by my wife, but it would have required pulling in a lot of favors and probably getting some partner-level approvals.
I mean what's the difference between a tourist with a laptop and a digital nomad? If you have no local clients, no local space and you officially reside elsewhere, it doesn't really matter.
Staying longer only makes sense if you grow economic roots too. You can't have a village with only digital nomads. Their taxes don't build bridges or create a community.
Is it a violation of my tourist visa to take a phone call from work when I'm on vacation?
The big benefit is the prolonged duration of the visa that allows you to really settle in and live there for a while.
For Korea obviously the advantages are the same as tourism.
most goods have VAT there, so this is not entirely true, i guess you mean income tax.
1. Right now you can be a "tourist" and have to leave/re-enter every 3 months. So things like renting an apartment for a year become out of the question, since SK could arbitrarily not let you re-enter. So you're stuck with the whims of hostel / airbnb owners.
2. Being a "tourist", you can't open a bank account or get a legit phone number. So you can't verify on Naver, which means you can't do things like book appointments for businesses that use Naver (which a lot of them do). You can't use KakaoPay without it either, so exchanging money with South Koreans means resorting to bitcoin which is just tedious.
Not to mention having a full year instead of having to do a visa run every 3 months and risk being rejected.
Life isn’t zero sum.
https://www.americamagazine.org/politics-society/2023/06/29/...
[1] https://www.oed.com/search/dictionary/?scope=Entries&q=xenop...
Don't make excuses for racism.
Reality is most Japanese aren’t competent English speakers and find the prospect of speaking it stressful.
Speak (decent) Japanese and you’ll have a very different experience.
Language doesn't have to do anything with it, it's more base than that. On a crowded subway for example, Japanese people won't want to sit near a white person or might get up and move if you sit near them.
But I don't think you are trying to have a conversation here, than just trying to push "facts" you read on reddit.
I'm not trying to push anything, just recounting my own experiences.
For Japan, superficially, perhaps, because this would violate rules of decorum, but in reality, no, people are quite hostile to foreigners, especially non-Western foreigners. Being openly racist toward Chinese or Korean immigrants is considered perfectly acceptable. Discrimination in employment, access to housing, healthcare and service by businesses on the basis of country of origin is also common. Despite being technically illegal under the Japanese constitution, there is little to no protection of these rights, outside individual lawsuits.
"We like our country the way we like it but ya'll foreigners are more than welcome to join us for supper."
An interesting story about Japan. I know someone who is ethnically Japanese, but who was raised in America and moved to Japan as an adult. He remarked he gets a lot of flak because he looks like he should know the rules, but doesn’t. It’s really not about “xenophobia.” It’s about having an orderly society where everyone knows the same rules and adheres to the same culture.
It's about discouraging and punishing individualism which is bonkers.
Not really. It's the viewpoint of most cultures throughout history.
> I think individualism should be punished.I think individualism should be punished.
Individualism allows for innovation and creativity.
> I nearly had a panic attack taking the New York subway the other day because of all the individualism.
This is a shame. Were you raised in Japan?
Most cultures do not value individualism. It's not even universal to Americans, historically.
> Individualism allows for innovation and creativity.
So what? It doesn't allow for an orderly society that's pleasant to live in.
> This is a shame. Were you raised in Japan?
No, just a tourist who has eyes and can see what shit holes American cities are in comparison. I was raised in Virginia. At least there, at that time, Christianity still functioned as a check on American individualism. Unfortunately that has collapsed.
> So what? It doesn't allow for an orderly society that's pleasant to live in.
Of course it does. Those two things are not mutually exclusive at all. Unless you take one of them way too far like the Japanese do, with no discernible benefit.
> No, just a tourist who has eyes and can see what shit holes American cities are in comparison.
That's not because of individualism, that's because of corruption, lack of regulation and enforcement, wealth disparity etc. Other western countries with the same focus on individualism have very nice and clean cities.
> Christianity still functioned as a check on American individualism. Unfortunately that has collapsed.
The sooner any and all religions become forgotten, the better we will all be for it.
By what measure? Most of the world is African and Asian, and those cultures are not individualistic.
> Of course it does. Those two things are not mutually exclusive at all. Unless you take one of them way too far like the Japanese do, with no discernible benefit.
The Japanese system produces tremendous benefits: an orderly society where everyone behaves according to rules.
> That's not because of individualism, that's because of corruption, lack of regulation and enforcement, wealth disparity etc.
Japan has corruption, wealth disparity, etc., as well. That isn't the thing that makes it different. Every society has those forces. Individualism just makes it harder to build a nice society in spite of them.
> Other western countries with the same focus on individualism have very nice and clean cities.
Most western countries aren't as individualistic as America. They're different than Asia, which is based on strong family networks, but it's not the worship of self that prevails in America: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante.
> The sooner any and all religions become forgotten, the better we will all be for it.
I wouldn't hold my breath, given that the world is becoming more religious: https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/aug/27/religion-why-is.... Christianity was the glue holding American society together, and now that's breaking down we are seeing the consequences.
They're certainly not at all anti-individualistic in the way Japan is.
> The Japanese system produces tremendous benefits: an orderly society where everyone behaves according to rules.
That's not something unique to Japan and the cost is too high. Japan also has numerous problems as a society.
> Individualism just makes it harder to build a nice society in spite of them.
That's honestly complete nonsense, as evidenced by every other nice society that isn't antagonistic towards individualism.
> Most western countries aren't as individualistic as America.
They're a hell of a lot closer to the US than Japan.
> given that the world is becoming more religious
It's really not. More and more people are questioning the faith they are born into and atheism is on the rise.
> Christianity was the glue holding American society together, and now that's breaking down we are seeing the consequences.
It's a fairy tale without evidence behind it, it would never survive long in an information age.
Extreme individualism leads to societal collapse. In fact the concept of society means there are some limits on individualism.
The other day I saw a bigger toddler kicking a smaller toddler in a museum, with no parents in sight, and no one was willing to intervene until my wife did. People just look at their feet and ignore the issue.
People should be free to follow their desires within reason, not forced into a mold because people were indoctrinated into thinking it was necessary.
“Come here, spend your money, enjoy our services and everything we built in the last centuries, then leave.”
I think countries who want these programs to take off for employees who aren’t contractors need to invest in messaging and legal support for employers as well.
Also, there's a 17 hour time difference between Korea and Los Angeles.
My understanding is there are other visas for people working at a Korea-based office.
It definitely won't work for people who need to be on the same working hours though. I've done that with east coast (13 hours ahead) and it was rough.
I guess the day of the week?
There are no syncing issues this way.
The logical thing to do is to allow both employee and employer to sign a document saying "we both agree that the employment laws of X will not apply, and all employment disputes will be resolved by the courts of Y country according to their laws".
X country would make an explicit law allowing digital nomads to do such a thing, perhaps with limits on Y (ie. require the company to have links to Y, or blacklist countries with zero employee protections whatsoever).
An employment contract is not a regular contract and can only be made according to rules otherwise it void and the court will find out the real nature of the contract for you. Even in the US employment contracts mention that all dispositions are valid only when not in conflict with law. The same happens in Europe.
I have a relative who is a work inspector and one case she always points out is the non compete or non disclosure clauses. She says if the contract does not give an obvious compensation for those clauses they will always be voided if tested in court, regardless of both parties having signed them. The threat power often remains though, because people are afraid of falling into such clauses so they self comply without any reason for it. I had work contracts for a developer work where it basically stated I could not have a blog without approval. I found it ridiculous and knew it was likely unenforceable but the tick stays in your head.
Almost certainly they are, as the same is even true with employment across state lines in the US. Labor laws are almost always determined by the employee’s place of residence vs. where the company is located.
I went through this myself a few years ago. I applied for, and received, a Taiwanese Gold Card (a similar program that allowed for foreign employment). I spent months going back and forth with the Taiwanese office attempting to understand what my employer at the time would be signing up for. They couldn’t give a clear answer on whether my presence would create a nexus for my employer, whether my employer would become responsible for health care program payments, etc. They kept referring me to one of the big four consulting companies. In the end I gave up and never entered.
The requirement to work for a foreign company and have an income double the average seems to allay the complaint of taking local jobs and consuming local social services.
The fact that the visa doesn't allow application to local jobs is enough to stop the first complaint on its tracks.
I wonder how they intend to deal with the seemingly inevitable rise in housing prices that comes with an influx of high earners.
I also see how it should destroy one's chances to rent any property if they deviate even slightly from the ideal tenant. A mixed ethnic family? Reject. Small child? Reject. Small business owner? Reject!
I think one reason for this is that the Soviet Union started infiltrating Western institutions about a century ago.
This extremely long-ranged strategy is still churning out results, even after they went belly-up. It's the kind of phenomenon that sustains itself - what conservative would ever consider becoming an academic in this environment?
And from there it spreads downward. It's also very helpful that the social "sciences" don't have a direct feedback loop to reality, so it's possible for large numbers of them to have completely kooky ideas for decades on end.
https://repository.usfca.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=100...
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2005/jul/01/schools.uk
Very good point that it’s likely still the tailwinds from Soviet propaganda and covert tactics to influence western culture.
The reason for this being, UK has quite stable political system for centuries, so even if it gets part of its own venom, that would not be nearly as destructive.
The USSR did surely assist in that, but it was too ham-fisted to serioulsy influence developed countries.
# If that sounds hard to believe, remember who paid Marx to publish Capital, hosted International Worker's Association and who published Communist Manifesto (and in what language).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Workingmen%27s_A...
For example real estate and migration are things that have existed for millennia before capitalism or socialism, and have been dealt with in a lot of different ways.
This is your comment from above. In order to make such a comment you are by definition either a collectivist or socialist. It reflects some fundamental illiteracy in the basics of economics and markets, because you suggest that a virtue would be for sellers or landlords to accept lower prices or rents than the market clearing price. That’s nonsensical frankly. It’s like suggesting asset owners are evil unless they hand out their assets as charity or donation or perhaps you will next suggest they should be obligated to, which is by definition redistribution and socialism.
I’m curious what education you do have and where you received it? You are here on HN and while I haven’t looked through your account history, I’m guessing you will somehow be technically very literate yet somehow have a mental framework for human economy and society that consists of some of the most failed and falsifiable concepts conceivable. Which country and/or state failed so deeply in providing a background in the economic components of our shared reality? there are many such as yourself and it’s incredible dangerous to civilized societies as when such wild failed and empirically flawed concepts are translated into policies via politics it brings incredible devastation, poverty, and suffering.
We need to start with reform of education systems. Almost as bad as not teaching evolution or perhaps even history of the holocaust.
Multiple other comments are genuinely curious how individuals like yourself hold such bizarre views around markets but yet are likely technically very skilled. It’s a curious phenomenon.
I don’t have any issue in real life and don’t have any “stalker tendencies”, people check other accounts posts and histories commonly and it’s expected. I was saying I haven’t.
I’m both a landlord and buyer and seller of real estate. Let’s say I follow your recommendation of selling or leasing below the market price, then I would have multiple buyers or tenants to chose from. What would you recommend my selection criteria between them be?
It's a human behavior which could theoretically be changed but wont be because it's irrational and unique to one person's perverse interests that none of the rational actors understand. Or maybe we could get the government to enforce this person's interests on everyone.
Yes, if I really wanted more money, and am willing to make it at the expense of society, I could jack up the price until demand meets existing supply. But again, that is my decision, not the decision of some abstract concept named "demand".
You can sell some of these exclusive widgets for $4 instead of $1 but getting leads would cost you these $3.
If I really want the widged but really can't stand in line for long enough, is it okay to hire someone to wait in line for me? How about a programmer to make a bot to constantly refresh your website so that I don't have to? Two bots?
Or you can sell to the highest bidder, maybe a foreign investor.
Or maybe some economic analogue of all that.
Anyways, the allocation is a matter secondary to the price: the point is that I can find a buyer for the lower price, and there will always be prospective buyers who think any allocation scheme is unfair, especially when they're crushed beneath the matching Ugg boots of Jan and Pat, the couples doubles doomslayers.
I personally find bread lines and black markets to buy basic necessities to be bad for society.
edit: By increasing prices you get capital with which to increase production to make even more money at closer to the original price point (due to selling more units). This in turns means that everyone can get a widget and not just a few people (lucky or well connected). It also means the money goes to the person able to increase production or make better widgets versus a pure scalper who resells the item (legally or on the black market).
Interesting thought process.
So the local gas station owner is also to blame for the increase in gas price and destroying the community and not the global supply/demand, right? Also the local bread maker, etc.
Home sellers equally sell their homes as expensive as they can and if the local work force can't afford a home then fuck them, they should move away or pay a land lord and stay broke. That's what most people think. But it's ridiculous to then blame the consequences on politicians or foreigners.
Businesses on the other hand have their own costs that dictates what they have to charge to remain in business. And they go out of business if they can't balance that. A land lord never goes out of business. A home owner can abandon his real estate for decades without losing it. There's a huge difference to businesses.
An example similar to real estate is natural resources, such as oil and gas. They generate enormous profit compared to investments and cost of operation. Some nations chose to let a few interests take those profits, some nations give their citizens cheap or free gas, some nations invest the profits into large funds and et cetera. There are different ways of doing things. Wherever you live right now, people did things differently in the past, especially when it comes to real estate.
Their cost definitely increases if the property is on mortgage and their rates went up. Also cost in maintenance increase and taxes as well. All those increases for the landlord will directly go into the price of rent for the tenant.
They also raise their prices because of supply/demand so someone comes and is willing to pay more. What are you gonna do, say no to more money?
The private rental market is still a business and not a charity. Only the public housing is there to cater to the needs of the people and not for profit making. Have you voted for the construction of more public housing?
> What are you gonna do, say no to more money?
Yes, sometimes you should do that if more money goes against your values. I've said no to more money a ton of times. I shouldn't be surprised, but I am surprised that hackers think that the thought is absurd. It's not being a "charity" to not squeeze as much as you can.
When I had a physical business I went out of my way to employ young people from the local community. It never crossed my mind to do things differently, while some of my competitors were taking advantage of cheaper foreign labour.
If the idea is to squeeze as much short term profit as possible, nothing is stopping you. But then don't turn around and blame the people who rented the apartments for a higher price. It was the landlords that increased their price. If I'm selling train tickets and then start cancelling the tickets that were already reserved so I could sell them for a greater profit to a foreigner, is it rational to blame the foreigner or me?
People do as they please, but put the blame were it belongs and admit you did it for personal profit when the consequences come.
If the market bears crazy sums then is it the individual landlord at fault, or is the market itself for being broken, as in the supply of housing is too low "thanks" to government building regulations and the demand too high thanks again to government opening the flood gates on immigration?
A couple of landlords here and there like you, charging below market rates, is not enough to fix the broken market created by the poorly though out government policies because you're not changing the supply/demand numbers.
So again, is it the landlords at fault for the broken market, or is their pricing simply just a reaction to the broken market itself? /Rethorical question
Here's a thought exercise: if there's 10 apartments available on the private market and 15 people wanting to move in due to the influx of immigrants, how do you decide who gets to move in and who gets left out if not by purchasing power?
How do you decide to fairly split a limited resource like housing without going full communist and have the state own everything and the state decide who gets what?
Here's the hard truth: If you're the government and you open the immigration floodgates then you'd better have buikt enough free housing available, or the immediate market reaction is gonna be increased rents for everyone. Simple.
What you want is social housing, laxer building regulations, and tighter immigration regulations based on available housing.
Yes, we all know that. It doesn't mean that they have to, and it doesn't mean somebody else is to blame for the consequences when they do that. Whatever bad incentives the government provides, every person is responsible and is to blame for their business decisions.
> Here's a thought exercise: if there's 10 apartments available on the private market and 15 people wanting to move in due to the influx of immigrants, how do you decide who gets to move in and who gets left out if not by purchasing power?
If you want to preserve the community, you give priority to people from the community and deny the immigrants. If you expel community members to make room for the immigrants, that is your fault and nobody else's. It's not the immigrant's fault, it is not the government's fault.
Human existence is not binary communist/capitalist. Only full blown communists and capitalists think like that.
> What you want is social housing
No, I don't want that. So if the rent is too expensive for poor people to afford because land lords are hogging real estate, then I have to pay that expensive rent for me and on top of that pay taxes for other people's housing through the government. That is nothing but injustice.
If everybody thinks that government regulation is the only way to stop people from abusing each other to the limit, instead of asking for personal responsibility, then don't be surprised when people do something stupid like vote in communists. What other options do you give them, if the answer to their woes is always a variant of "tough luck, get fucked"? Yes, for business and yes for career, those fields should be competitive. But no if decent and hard working people can not afford to live in their own place.
I'm from a country with a demographics falling off the cliff, like Germany but worse, and just like Germany, housing prices (where jobs are) have went nowhere but up at a steep rate beyond wage growth, because housing is not a fixed pie for whom now less people are competing due to increased deaths vs births, because for a few decades now, it's no longer just people competing for housing against the other people, but piles of money competing against other piles of money, and the bigger piles are winning(aka investors).
If you expect housing to get cheaper because less babys will be born, you'll be in a rude awakening. If you want housing to go down you need to decouple it from investments because otherwise, all the levers will be pulled by the governments and banks to make sure that line only goes up regardless of demographics. "Too few babies are being born? No problem, we'll just market those houses to foreign investors. Problem solved. Line goes up now."
It might take a long time, but at some point the chickens will come home to roost. Or roast...
Have you seen the old city center of Prague in Czechia? or any old city center in any major city in Europe. These numbers only go up.
Internal migration is a big thing even in countries with tanking birthrates. Entire villages are being emptied as old people die and their kids move to the cities for studies and work. The population overall is shrinking but housing demand in cities is still growing fast.
So yes, you can have a booming property market in a country with shrinking population. Nobody's gonna live in those forgotten villages with cheap empty housing but no schools, universities, hospitals, doctors, jobs and entertainment opportunities.
>at the end of the day has to pay for it to use it, otherwise it's just a ponzi scheme.
The housing market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent.
Safe to assume housing market aint going to go bust anytime soon if you live anywhere in the first world cities.
But for most immigrants it's really hard to feel at home in a small town halfway around the world.
To add salt to the injury, SBB (the federal railway company) entered the real estate market and rents exclusively. It feels like a government sanctioned way to keep people out of the housing market.
[update] Also the regulation on gear/materials is insanely costly, in Dublin new houses need to have a BER [1] rating of 'A'. Looks great in paper but this severely increases the cost.
[1] https://www.seai.ie/home-energy/building-energy-rating-ber/u...
It's obvious. Large families are no longer imagined as a joyful thing, life affirming, a source of meaning, an honor, and the true wealth of a family in the eyes most. No, large families are for poor people who are too stupid to use contraception, an impediment to consuming shit, because everyone knows that consumption is true happiness.
So it sounds like Korea may be trying to overcome occurring or forecasted economic decline resulting from the worst fertility rate in the world and without mass immigration and having their culture threatened as a result. But barring a miracle, they're just buying time before their inevitable collapse. I dare say it is virtually impossible for a society to turn away from the religion of consumption once it has captured and corrupted a society. The only way out seems to be through the inevitable collapse, as that is the only way the spell is broken. This is tragic.
That's not to say we shouldn't consider the consequences of these changes and provide incentives and disincentives to nudge things one way or another, and manage the demographic shifts in order to lessen their shocks.
>> Can I work with the digital nomad visa?
>> No. Travelers visiting under the visa cannot be hired or involved in any profit-making activity during their stay.
Isn’t the point of a digital nomad that you are able to work from anywhere?
[0] https://www.digitalnomadskorea.com/post/everything-you-need-...
They aren't trying to attract people that will live off ramen for a year.
My biggest complaint is the application process:
> Those who wish to obtain the visa can apply via Korean embassies in their respective country.
I don't want to go back to my home country and sit there while I wait for my visa to go through! I'm already in Asia, flying back and forth to the UK to get this visa is a pain. It should be an online application process. I feel like they haven't really thought this through.
Sometimes it’s phrased that any income from your home country while you’re in your guest country is only taxable in your home country. Other times it’s just credited against your local taxes (which could cover everything with a lot of paperwork, or could still leave you with an amount owing to cover the gap).
Sometimes even locally earned income is tax free, but that’s usually only for students.
I walked into the government office a couple times and tried to find a path to a legitimate visa and was told each time I couldn’t do it. I found that the longer I was staying, the less comfortable I was with my status. If there was a path for me to be a legitimate resident, I may have stayed longer than the 3 years I was there.
The biggest complaint foreigners have is foreigners tend to only stay for a few years, so you're always losing your close friends. My recommendation is to make sure your friends aren't other foreigners, but it can be hard to find English speakers (especially outside major cities)
Korean is not the easiest language for Europeans to learn. But having learned a second language as an adult, I find that speaking the local language is amazingly useful when functioning in a foreign country. It's like, hey, I can talk! And I'm literate. Everything suddenly becomes much smoother and easier. I can hang out with people, make friends, go shopping, navigate an emergency room, and even hire skilled professionals who don't speak English. I can even take college level STEM courses, although it's brutal.
Expat bubbles are weird places. They're certainly useful for people who won't be around for more than a year or two. And getting good at Korean is a much bigger commitment than hopping between Romance languages. But if you're moving between related languages, then you can see significant payoff after 350 hours of work, and you can be able to function as an adult after 1,000 to 1,500 hours. And that's not all classroom time. Some of it can be watching TV, or just hanging out with people.
For any kind of extended stay, I feel like learning the local language is absolutely worth it.
I would say that, broadly speaking, yes. Korea today is a bit more welcoming than nearby countries like Japan, China, or Taiwan, etc. Since the last dictator in the late 80s, there's been a general consensus understanding that for Korea to survive as a civilization (being next door to more dominant and better known cultures from Japan and China), it must integrate with the rest of the world, and produce meaningful cultural exports and become valued by the international order. The rise of Korean media is not an accident but part of a long-term series of programs to build viable industries in film, music, food, etc. and have those industries take root outside the country in order to create export markets -- very important when your entire economy is built on being export driven. Almost all of the Koreans I personally know, regardless of industry, would jump at the chance to work with a foreigner if it meant they could do some international business.
Korea is pretty small, so you quickly exhaust domestic travel options. As a result, the average Korean, while being somewhat parochial in outlook is pretty curious about the rest of the world, many now have the means to travel abroad, and they do so pretty often. It's not uncommon to be at the Louvre or the British museum and see tour buses of elderly Koreans unload. The succeeding generations, being better educated and often with better foreign language and cultural skills often just skip the organized group tours and go on their own.
When I first went to Korea, even seeing any signage in English was rare. Today, in Seoul you can usually find "ok" English signage around tourist spots, and it's not as impossible as it once was to find somebody who can have a very basic English conversation. Many vendors will have English language signs and it's atypical to be given "tourist" prices. I'd say in those respects it's easier to get around Seoul than Tokyo for example. If I had to sum up the Korean approach to dealing with foreigners is that "your money spends just as well as anybody else's".
Housing costs, especially in Seoul, can be high. If you are from a U.S. Coastal urban megalopolis area, they'll be comparable. If you have lots of cash on hand, the Jeonse (Key Money) practice can be helpful in helping set a low monthly budget. Outside of Seoul, housing is much more affordable, and to be honest, I find the smaller cities much more enjoyable and they aren't far from all that Seoul has to offer by bullet train. But locals may not be happy if an influx of nomads drives housing prices up. If I had to pick, I'd probably choose either Jeonju or Gwangju to live in (cheaper COL, great food, nice chill vibes in the southwest) or maybe Daegu if you like proximity to hiking in the mountains, and not far from the beaches in Busan. But I'm old, if you want nightlife, Seoul is where it's at.
All this combines to make being there pretty decent for the average foreigner, but not necessarily "cheap" like you might find in Thailand or other typical digital nomad countries. You'll always find assholes or grumpy old people like anywhere, but on the average you'll find most people on the day to day easy enough to interact with, and eager to do business with you. That being said, there are very few protections against discrimination. If something ends up with the police, it's pretty typical for the foreigner's account to be dismissed still -- so there's still some growing pains there -- it's not uncommon for media plotlines to revolve around some ill that a foreigner brought in with them.
With the demographic crash happening, and Korea becoming more of a destination country for foreigners (a little over 4% of the population are foreign and it hosts one of the largest American immigrant populations in the world), I expect there will still be quite a bit of social development occurring as the nation figures out if it can really welcome foreigners in a way that aligns with national aspirations -- but it's likely that we'll see a more cosmopolitan country in the future. The changes just in the last 20 years have been phenomenal to see first-hand.
If you want to see what pretty normal interactions are like with Koreans, I'd recommend the youtuber "Where is Dan", who's on a mission to visit every district in Seoul and practice his pretty basic conversational level Korean with as many shopkeeps and people on the street as he can get on camera. But the interactions are 100% authentic and typical of what a foreigner might find there. https://www.youtube.com/@whereisdan/videos
Businesses can arbitrarily reject you as there are (seemingly) no protections. I saw a (white) guy from Uzbekistan get rejected from a club for no reason other than his nationality.
Black people definitely experience racism in Korea. Not exactly like in the US obviously but it's a real phenomenon that people tend to dismiss.
Dude, black people are are not treated better in Asia than the US, get real.
Kind of, it depends on your ethnicity. Koreans tend to treat white people pretty well. There’s a lot of anti Chinese sentiment, and some anti Japanese. If you have African ancestry they won’t mistreat you but they have very strange stereotypes. There’s currently a “crisis” regarding South East Asian illegal immigrants plus drug smuggling, so if your ethnically from that region keep that in mind.
Korea is not as open to foreigners as for instance Thailand. It’s similar to Japan, being more easy to make friendships but having less State services that are foreigner friendly. Most documents are available in English, and most freeway signs are in both Hangeul and English.
Singapore's requirements strike me as especially conservative in comparison (five years leading a co with $30M raised, and that's just one of the "two of three" reqs).
I'd also look at the local tech ecosystem before applying -- Twitch is shutting down in South Korea in 2024 due to sender-pays "network usage fees" in the local Telecommunications Business Act. Also there's legacy technology (esp for online banking) that depends on Internet Explorer and ActiveX due to a home-grown encryption standard built in response to US Export Controls limiting 1990s browsers to 40-bit RC2/RC4, so Windows is still the predominant desktop operating system there.
The website for the embassy nearest to me just linked to here but I'm not seeing it: https://www.visa.go.kr/main/openMain.do
There's mention of a "Working Holiday" visa here: https://whic.mofa.go.kr/contents.do?menuNo=90&contentsNo=38
But it appears to be for working part-time in Korea, not as a digital nomad.
Rich people visas are cool, but don't help actual nomads as simply everywhere they exist they put up a prohibitively high threshold on an income (that you can't even prove documentary half the time).
Nobody is going to build rich person wealth at 66
In the states, ignoring California insanity, it feels like if you can land a $200k+ job you’ll have something that feels sort of rich by the end but just barely. And that’a going to be around a top 5th percentile income for most areas.
The highest median income of all countries (Luxembourg) is about half that, give or take. The median income on Earth is somewhere around 5k, I think.
US is ~$41k for an individual and this includes 14/15 year olds.
You can count income in many ways and the data here is probably fresher than what I could find in a half-minute search. USA is just right after the Luxembourg and the number is still just 62% of the 66k mentioned above.
https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2023/demo/p60-27...
I don’t think “both people have to work, to be average” counts as “rich”.
1. I can bet an average household in the US is > 2 people (google says 3.13). The threshold in question is for personal income.
2. The context of the whole discussion is global, so comparisons made from a perspective of a citizen of one of the richest countries in the world don't really fly.
1. https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/how-rich-am-i?income=66000&c...
So yes, by global standards, $66k/year would mean you are extremely rich. It's even quite a bit higher than the median adult income in developed countries. At $66k/year, you're making about double the average German working adult, and over triple the average Japanese working adult. [2]
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income
I think people often don't understand the grand scale of difference between the developing and the developed world. Yes, there is a cost of living adjustment, and certain things are cheaper abroad (though many things, such as electronics, are more expensive), but people really do consume a ton more in the rich world. Most people don't have cars, and most people live in far smaller homes. Even Europeans live in far smaller homes than Americans: the average new English home is 1/3 the size of the average American home. [3] People in developing countries also travel a lot less. Only 3% of Indians have traveled abroad, vs. 76% of Americans. [4]
The discretionary income, defined as "all the money you have left after paying for taxes and your absolute needs", that most Americans have (all but the lowest 3 deciles) would be extremely enviable by most people worldwide. [5, 6]
3. https://www.businessinsider.com/ons-english-homes-are-a-thir...
4. https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2023/12/06/international-...
5. https://www.fool.com/investing/general/2015/10/18/the-averag...
6. https://infogram.com/discretionary_income_by_income_decile
You would not be able to buy a house, support a family, have some hobbies, with a 66k/year salary in most of the major cities of the world nowadays.
(You could buy a house with a 30 year mortgage sure, but does not exactly scream rich.)
Uh I can think of quite a few where you would. Just on the top of my mind: Lisbon, Mexico City, Milano, Saigon,Bangalore, Madrid, I mean I can go on for quite a while. But sure, you’d struggle in Zurich, Monaco, London, Silicon Valley or Singapore, IE some of the most expensive places in the world.
> You would not be able to buy a house, support a family, have some hobbies, with a 66k/year salary in most of the major cities of the world nowadays.
Someone who can work fully remote globally with a 66k year salary will def. not be short of places where they can live extremely comfortably. Since we are talking about digital nomads, who can work from everywhere, I do think they constitute as very very rich in this context. When we think of those who would be able to apply for a digital nomad visa, in a global context, would be only those who are in the global top 1%.
You’d have to struggle to buy a house with a 66k USD equivalent income in these places unless you are okay with living far away from your workplace.
Doesn’t seem very rich.
Purchasing power is what matters. Much less purchasing power today than people did in the 1950s (when a working class man could support a wife and children on his salary alone) and even boomers.
$66k certainly isn't poverty, even in a place like NYC or SF, but it is not rich.
This is officially “low income” in my area, and I think it qualifies someone for low income housing.
For reference, I’m in California, but not in or near a big city.
Just ask any random non-white engineer working in UAE, China, and Japan. People are getting Western European passports and working in Dubai to receive first-class treatment.
If you can argue well, an appeal to a "we" and to a specific use of language in an online forum won't be necessary.
But let's say, if the country of my current residence had the same program with the same threshold, I would most likely not qualify (or just barely) and I surely wouldn't have any means of proving it. However, my financial situation† allows for pretty comfortable living (for more than one person), at least by the local standards.
I think I qualify for the label in question. All my work is done digitally and remotely, and I'm out of my country of origin (although not 100% by choice).
†: Not including the savings.
A strong argument should not only, as it is customary in modern times, to look at the advantages and the interest of the individual, but also consider the benefit of the commons, in this case the the country that (hopefully) designed their digital nomad program to the benefit of its population. It is their responsibility to attract and reject people accordingly.
Uh, thanks?
> in this case the the country that (hopefully) designed their digital nomad program to the benefit of its population
Well, I can agree and just note that this is orthogonal to the issue I'm raising: It's a rich people visa and as such is not helpful to many people who objectively qualify for a "digital nomad" moniker, so there's a mismatch between the name and the function.
As I understand it, the whole point of these schemes is to collect money from people who do have it, instead of losing it to the guys who simply do remote work on the "tourist" visa.
While I do enjoy my EU salary nomading within EU, those with >5x local salaries have pretty much ruined Lisbon and Porto.
Cities like Venice lost their original character as many locals preferred to move out of the historical center to reduce the cost of living.
Other cities like Florence don't allow new bed and breakfasts to be registered, to try and control housing costs.
A large amount of foreign income being spent in a local economy may cause temporary disruptions to the status quo but is overall a good thing. It shouldn't really be a surprise that governments worldwide are encouraging it.