Hacker News Reader

Comment by alangibson | Hacker News Reader

I love Dan Carlin too, but you have to listen with a critical ear. He endorsed the standard, but very questionable, idea that the US basically had to atom bomb two Japanese cities because if we didn't they'd fight to the last grandmother.

IIRC he also endorsed the now largely discredited idea that the atom bomb attack is what caused the Japanese to surrender.

View on HN

> the now largely discredited idea that the atom bomb attack is what caused the Japanese to surrender

Do you have a source for this? I just spent 10 minutes searching, and I could find nothing compelling. The closest I could find was Racing the Enemy, which argues that it was the planned Soviet invasion that pushed the Japanese to surrender. But otherwise, the story seems a lot more complex than that, and is certainly nowhere near "discredited" to suggest the atom bomb caused the Japanese to surrender.

Further reading (and these themselves contain references to even further reading):

https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1505pek/was_...

https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/15gsdme/i_un...

https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/wwa2ie/were_...

https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/cawabr/were_...

Stalin's defeat of the Kwantung Army in Manchuria is what finally convinced them there was no way forward. That the Soviet Union actually defeated the Japanese is obviously not a popular opinion in the west.

Begin quote:

Even the second atomic bomb had not dissuaded them from continuing the war. But when reports from the Kwantung Army began to arrive, reporting significant Soviet penetration in Manchuria and the situation as “obscure,” objections to surrender were far less convincing.

The Soviets’ Manchurian Campaign, August Storm, destroyed the last vestige of Japanese military power outside Japan, and put the final nail in the coffin of those Japanese militarists who, even after suffering two atomic attacks, intended to continue the war to the death.

https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/article/the-soviet-invasio...

I don't listen to his podcast, but I understand that Carlin is discredited by most serious historians in general.

Any good sources?

Trying to remember where I've read this in the past. I used to follow AskHistorians on Reddit and a quick search shows questions about him being asked quite a bit, for example here: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1ppmsm/comme... (it's not all negative!). There are a ton of other threads too.

That doesn't seem to support "Carlin is discredited by most serious historians in general." Reading that comment, it sounds like I shouldn't treat Carlin as a definitive source on anything. Which seems fine? And the closest thing I can see to a specific criticism there is "oversimplification of the Roman Republic." Which I'm not even sure is a criticism. I generally expect lay history to oversimplify things.

Also... that comment was written 10 years ago.

I also follow and read r/askhistorians. I love it.

> I shouldn't treat Carlin as a definitive source on anything

Isn't this a key lesson in the study of history? There are no "definitive sources." Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary sources have their own biases, limitations, and cultural influences, sometimes to the point that they say more about their own lives than the history they portray. Sometimes it takes centuries for anyone to notice.

Your best hope for assembling an accurate picture of the past is to characterize how the biases you're aware of may have influenced the evidence available to you.

I agree..? Still, there is a difference between Carlin and a "real" historian. That's what I was trying to capture with pithy phrasing. I'll leave it to you to come up with the words to draw that distinction, if you think there is one at all. (And this is actually the point of contention in this thread, which I believe your comment isn't really addressing. I'd consider your comment more of a truism IMO.)

> Still, there is a difference between Carlin and a "real" historian.

You’re not wrong but that’s also something he openly reminds listeners of about 9 times per episode. I just listened to one of his early episodes and he voiced an opinion that is entirely wrong, but he couched it by basically saying “this is a crazy idea but maybe…” so I have no problem with it.

I don't see how that changes anything I've said. And I don't see how anything I've said is in conflict with that. Moreover, not all critiques of Carlin are limited to specific sections where Carlin fastidiously points out he might be wrong.

Carlin does of course remind everyone that he isn't a historian quite regularly. And that's a good thing and a good reminder. But that doesn't mean his content cannot be critiqued for accuracy.

You may consider reading my comments on this thread again. I was defending Carlin.

Like I said, that comment was by no means exclusively negative and I don't recall where I read the more critical take, but it might have been one of the other (many!) posts about Carlin on r/askhistorians.

Yeah I've read a lot of the more critical takes in r/askhistorians. They don't seem overly bad in broad strokes to me at least. And I think some of the critics may overstate their conclusions, even if I agree with their analysis.

But even with that background knowledge, I think your claim is far too strong.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com