Especially when you have “special purpose vehicle” LLC’s which aren’t really even real companies at all.
To wit, getting the government to declare it especially exempt from the normal responsibilities of debts and liabilities that affect everyone else.
I'm sorry, what are you talking about?
They are ubiquitous today, but at one time each limited liability corporation was individually created by a unique law passed by the legislature, for a specific purpose--often infrastructure projects--and with a fixed lifetime unless renewed again by another law.
In my experience masking ownership or allowing secret ownership of LLC’s is a net loss for society as a whole. There is a large surface area where ownership is not being masked for a good reason, but is being done as deliberate deception.
At some point we decided that this sort of thing should be available for everyone with the money and time to file the appropriate paperwork. It's really odd though since you can avoid things through incorporation that you can't avoid through other means -- debts that would carry through bankruptcy, and even many criminal issues (at least if they don't rise to the level to pierce the corporate veil).
And I agree with you.
There is a similar law going into effect at the Federal level in January. Some people tried to fearmonger when telling me about it, but I thought it was pretty sane after some research.
Having an LLC is a privilege, not a right, and we should act like it.
I am also an owner of an LLC, and think it should be a right.
If you wanted to be free of government requirements, you should have used a sole proprietorship.
Otherwise, since the government is giving you some protection, they can ask for things in return.
That's what the justice system is for, not the mob.
No they do not. Not everything is a right because of feelings.
> if you deliver shoddy stuff, they could try to sue, you shut the LLC down
This is way oversimplified. Delivering a "shoddy product" is not illegal and it's not the responsibility of victims to deliver justice, it's the responsibility of the government. If a victim wants justice they should go to a court and a court will have access to information on who owns a business.
> and they're left without justice
Ok, so you actually are advocating for vigilante and mob justice.
But if it was public, they would know who you are and could bring a civil case and go through the justice system.
> This is way oversimplified. Delivering a "shoddy product" is not illegal and it's not the responsibility of victims to deliver justice, it's the responsibility of the government. If a victim wants justice they should go to a court and a court will have access to information on who owns a business.
Not necessarily.
And in a civil case, it is unfortunately the responsibility of the victim to set the wheels of justice in motion through the justice system.
I have no idea why you think I am in favor of mob justice when I am at risk of it too as an LLC owner.
> No they do not. Not everything is a right because of feelings.
This is what the commenter above meant with "rights for me and not for thee." You want privacy, but you deny your customers the right of knowing who they are doing business with.
But your demand for the right of privacy is based on your feelings of fear.
You have no real need for privacy, you just want it. You want protection from "them", and anyone who wants protection from you has to navigate the legal system. You pay $100, they pay thousands for a lawyer. Sounds fair.
That's what the justice system is for, not the mob.
If I find an LLC I want to do business with, now I can look at who owns it to see if that changes anything. Otherwise, I can't.
For me personally, I like having them public because one LLC might become a client, and I want to be sure that client is who they say they are and not owned by a company that I won't do business with.
For example, maybe Microsoft decides they want to get support from me. I don't want to support Microsoft. So they have one of their existing shell companies act like a potential client. If LLC records are not public, I can't know it's really Microsoft and reject them. If they are public, I can do the legwork to find out and reject them.
Why would a single individual not want to sue on their own? Who is organizing such mobs and why are they mobbing together?
By saying "why else would they want it" makes me believe you are going entirely on assumption, with zero facts to back it up. There are many acceptable explanations for why someone would want the information.
Hoping to get the federal one invalidated as soon as 2024 starts, easier to establish standing in the courts once that law starts.
State level ones may be able to pass muster and be evaluated independently, but NY was already unattractive place to form LLC’s and not seeing the difference here. The states compete with each other for business so it just makes other states more attractive.
Maybe certain industries need beneficial owner information. But all LLC’s by mere nature of existing? No
The point I'm making overall is that demanding there be no anonymity is asking everybody to give up an exceptionally valuable freedom, and what we're getting in return just ranges between nothing for the overwhelming majority of the population, to things with relatively easy solutions for the small percent of people that are affected.
You seem to think people should randomly trust any old LLC to be honest with the public. Why?
As for lying, this is why you have contracts, and in those contracts you have penalties above and beyond losses as penalties. Incidentally it would also generally be a crime. Fraudulent representation of ownership or identity would certainly be prosecutable as fraud and likely other charges. If any money changes hands, you're also setting the stage for wire fraud charges which are particularly nasty, and what really packs on the decades for basically every white collar conviction.
A non exhaustive list of examples: an LLC trying to do business with your town; an LLC filing permits for construction or some business venture; LLC bidding on public projects; an LLC filing for eminent domain privileges at the muni, State or Federal level.
Etc etc.
In general, hiding ownership of LLCs is not done for benign reasons.