Comment by eganist | Hacker News Reader

Comment by eganist | Hacker News Reader

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I'll reply with a bunch of anecdotes, so please bear with me.

A few trends over the last two decades:

* targeted monetization of everything under the sun

* a total shift towards a subscription economy for nearly everything digital.

* a near total shift towards mobile content consumption devices especially for younger consumers (tablets and phones)

has likely resulted in the following:

* low quality algorithmically driven junk food content (tiktok, instagram reels, the garbage people post to advice subreddits)

* startups j-curving for usage and leaning into advertising as their only viable business case

* Google scraping your inbox for ad keywords in the mid 2000s and beyond, Microsoft injecting ads into Windows 10 and 11, etc.

Perhaps worse:

* Generation Alpha and later Gen Z kids having relatively diminished technical literacy compared to elder Gen Z and Millenials (absolutely anecdotal. I'm citing three teacher friends frustrated that kids navigate their way around computers more poorly with each passing year)

* subconscious mass influence of behavior patterns (foreign election interference, your trip to your local McDonald's, sneaker hype culture)

Practically the only thing that hasn't actually gotten worse online, regardless of our own diverse opinions about it, is Wikipedia. It's a for-profit warzone of competing interests making competing edits, but it's an example of what can happen when the constant growth/profit/exit-motive isn't there.

Many of the hobbyist sites running on sites like vbulletin or invision are gone; we use subreddits for those now. And people don't even bother with those, more and more people just post meme gifs in the comments of reels, sitting there scrolling through with their thumbs rather than contributing something new and unique.

I have a kid that's in middle school and last year there was about a 2 month stretch of multiple daily fights that were driven by views on TikTok by 6th graders, so around age 11.

It started out small. Maybe a kid would start something in the hall while his friends pulled out their phones, recorded it and posted it to TikTok. Then they realized if they start a larger fight on the way to lunch they'd get more views because kids had their phones at lunch. Once that leveled off they realized that fights in class got even more views because it involved a teacher. It got to the point where my kid would walk outside to go to their next class because the halls were just filled with kids trying to do anything to get views on TikTok.

The larger issue were the second and third order effects this caused. Kids started refusing to go to school because of the fights and attendance problems soared. Multiple classes were constantly disrupted. Due to the layout of the school most of the hallways are narrow so it was near impossible to get to class on time.

It took the spring break and major intervention from the administration, staff, and students to finally have the fad die out. It still flared up from time to time in the spring, but never as bad as the winter.

This year it's now about how funky of a combination of socks and crocs you can post to Instagram.

Kids shouldn’t be allowed to have phones while in school. We dealt with it just fine even in the early 2000s… there’s no harm. No you don’t need to be able to reach your kid at any time of the day. Remember when kids just went outside?

They're not allowed to have them in class, but we all know how well banning anything with early teens goes.

The influence of social media extends to school boards being completely paralyzed. Imagine the "Moms for Access to Students During the School Day" Facebook group that would crop up and overthrow a school board that institutes mandatory cell phone bans.

I'm in one of the most affluent, pretty liberal, and successful school districts in the county and the past 5 years have been dumpster fire after dumpster fire due to Facebook getting small, extremely vocal people spun about "their children." Luckily they do hold of most of the more extreme end of the spectrum, but some things are not worth spending the political capital on. School board elections also align with US Presidential election years so turnout is usually high to keep the crazies away.

As an addendum realize that these kids were making that awkward transition into pre and early teen years at the height of the COVID pandemic. Social media was a connection to their friends and peers that they did not see in most large social gatherings for at least 6 months if not closer to a year.

Now my kids have mostly transitioned into smaller group text chats and Facetime conference calls with their closest friends as they are getting older. They are also heavily involved in sports and other activities where they're invested in getting better versus the constant competition of social media.

I have also instituted an Apple-only devices in the house because while they do have their short comings, the Screen Time settings do work very well. I don't monitor my kids closely, but I do limit the amount of time they can spend on social media services, YouTube, etc.

edit: I'm Gen X and our major problems in middle and high school where alcohol and drugs and everyone smoked. I know multiple people that died due to drug overdoses, mainly heroin, in the early to mid 90s. I have friends in their 30s and 40s that developed lung, throat, or mouth cancers. Thankfully, at least locally, that's not a problem.

If only it was limited to just kids. There's a whole genre of "influencers" whose main form of content seems to be annoying the shit out of the general public[1]. Not to mention cases like the guy who crashed his plane into a mountain[2].

Social media, especially with algorithmic feeds, is a bad influence.

[1] https://nextshark.com/livestreamer-johnnysomali-japan-court

[2] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65567519

I didn't think I could be more in favor of a total social media ban for kids, but here I am.

Seems like a ban for anyone under 16 is in order and a separate tenant for 16-17 to help kids navigate their way through the minefield before they're adults makes sense.

As a parent the part that sucks is there is good that can come of this, but it's not on the major free-for-all platforms.

My kids are involved in some activities that use other social media-like platforms for sharing information with kids and parents, posting videos/photos, and even includes some group chat features where everyone can interact. It's been great, but 1. it's a small, controlled group and 2. there's active moderation that's possible due to the small size.

My youngest has learned to draw, and is really, really good at it, due to some amazing content on YouTube. They love to sit for hours drawing both following along and using it as inspiration for their own art work. But we all know how must of a disaster YouTube can be.

My life has also been heavily influence (good and bad) by having access to BBS and early Internet chatrooms and forums begging around age 10. I was lucky in that my father was involved in the 80s and 90s telecom boom so I had access to a lot of things (with and without my parents approval) before they became mainstream. I think overall it made me a better person getting all that crap out of my system early.

I don't want my kids to miss out of opportunities like that, but I also don't want them being sucked into the algorithm-driven shitfests of Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, etc.

Tech Illiteracy is definitely a problem with kids. Even if they do have a real computer, school might entirely be web based. Google classroom, google drive, google office. No one learns what they don’t use.

That being said, I’m a senior developer now and I didn’t really touch a command line until junior year of college. I guess we all learn what we need to learn and if a kid really wants to learn how a computer works he or she will.

How is tech illiteracy being defined in this case? In my experience, most kids were not technically literate during the 2000s unless you thought moving applications into a USB stick or websurfing counts as technical literacy.

That’s kind of my point: it’s a little wishy washy, but things like knowing what a file is, and how to run a desktop application.

> Many of the hobbyist sites running on sites like vbulletin or invision are gone; we use subreddits for those now. And people don't even bother with those, more and more people just post meme gifs in the comments of reels, sitting there scrolling through with their thumbs rather than contributing something new and unique.

Gen Z's rampant tech illiterate is likely a cause not a consequence of this. Most of the independent forums were probably run by teens and college students. They aged out of it, shut their forums down and weren't replaced by a new generation. Then Reddit filled the void to become a profitable corporation that will probably exit via IPO in the near future.

Another cause of this is the collapse of the middle class due to wage growth failing to keep up with inflation. If you can't even afford housing, health care, transportation and food then you're going to be obsessed with "side hustles" to try and make some extra money rather than actually living. Running a forum or writing a freeware game because you actually believe in it is a luxury that people can no longer afford in this "booming" (if you're a millionaire or work a McJob) economy.

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