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Comment by Swizec | Hacker News Reader

I’ve had extraordinary luck with broken French in France. If you start in French and do your best, a lot of people suddenly speak fluent English. Especially in metro areas.

But the experience does not compare to traveling with my partner who speaks fluent zero-accent French. Paris turns into a different much nicer city when you pair with a native speaker.

That said, you’ll never get the level of service you see in USA. The French (Europe in general) just don’t care that much about customer UX. You either do it their way or you can leave.

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> The French (Europe in general) just don’t care that much about customer UX. You either do it their way or you can leave.

I think Europe partly just has different preferences around service. We tend to find American servers annoyingly fake, and to be constantly needlessly interrupting us to ask if we need anything. And of course, one should also take into account the experience of being a server.

Having had a date night in Manhattan in a fairly expensive and good restaurant, some time during the first few courses, we had to have a few words with the maître d’ - just to get the wait staff to stop bugging us if we wanted ketchup or whatever - and to observe the language of cutlery as to when we were finished a course. Once explained how we’d like it, we got top-notch European style discreet service and a far less interrupted conversation. A gentle twist of the head got the wine waiter refilling our glasses rather than butting in. It’s possible!

omg yes is "language of cutlery" not a thing in US?

As an example of this: Americans tend to expect plates being picked up as soon as one is finished eating, even when others on the same table are not finished yet. In my native Netherlands this would be considered (very) rude, with plates only removed after everyone is finished and then some grace period. Picking up plates early here indicates the restaurant wants you out the door quickly.

> annoyingly fake

a small correction here: ANNOYINGLY FAKE

Europe as a whole has always come off as unpleasant to visit as an American, from what I've read online such as this thread. In no American city I've been to do you have to be so vigilant for pickpockets as you apparently do in European cities, and virtually no one in America will complain about your accent or grammar. We have free water at restaurants, and the staff won't treat you like a mooch for asking about it; in fact most staff of any business will make at least a basic attempt to be pleasant towards you. You get your money's worth in food portions at restaurants, the taxes are cheaper, you won't be arrested and fined for making a rude tweet.. why exactly would I want to visit Europe?

You have been piled on a lot already in this thread but let me add my 2 cents:

- you don’t have to be particularly careful about pickpockets anywhere in Europe, at least not more than anywhere else in the world.

- you always get free tapwater in restaurants if you ask for it anywhere in Europe, also most waiters are also generally pleasant (of course there can be unpleasant people anywhere)

- not sure about the tax thing (why would you care about that as visitor anyway?) - atleast we have free healthcare and free university shrug

- haven’t heard from anyone that got arrested for a „rude“ tweet lolwhat

You don’t have to visit of course but it would surely expand your horizon. When I visited the US for the first time I realised that most of the prejudices against Americans weren’t true (that most Americans are fat, stupid and greedy for example - sure a lot of them are but not the majority)

The thing about Europe is that it's large and diverse, you can't generalize by saying "in Europe".

There are a lot of pickpockets in Paris, I've never been victim of it but I've witnessed it several time. Never saw that in the 5 years I lived in Tokyo or the 3 years I lived in SF.

You always get free tapwater in France (that's the law) but not in Poland.

I agree in that I would recommend anyone to visit Europe - even European should visit other European countries! But it's important to remember that Europe is made of several very, very different countries.

You are totally right. It would have made my response much more complicated to include all the differences though.

I would still argue all I wrote above applies generally to all countries in the EU. Could not reproduce your tapwater experience in Poland so ymmv

> you always get free tapwater in restaurants if you ask for it anywhere in Europe

In the Netherlands you'd have a hard time. Most places will refuse, especially if that's the only thing you're ordering.

that's not really been my experience. whenever i order something at a restaurant and then i ask for some tap water, most of them do

This is all true. You also can ask for ice with your coke. This will endear you with the wait staff as they can not resist snickering and muttering “American ..”

That depends on the country. In Spain ice with your soft drinks is the default, even in winter.

Yes, this was France.

In the US I always had to specifically ask to not have ice in my drinks.

That was one thing I could never wrap my head around.

The other thing was the extreme use of AC. I can understand AC to an extent, but they were making it so cold I had to bring extra clothes just to go in the supermarket for example - what the heck?!

It's a matter of cultural differences and expectations. Only American cities are like American cities. If you travel anywhere else expecting everything to be just like America you'll be hugely dissapointed.

This doesn't make sense.

> why exactly would I want to visit Europe?

To see stuff? US doesen't really have that have much besides nature worth seeing/experiencing from a traditional tourist perspective. Almost all the cities besides a handful are extremely boring in comparison (and in those worth visiting like SF you're very likely to get stabbed by a drug addict or even shot)*.

To be honest besides not having free water in restaurants (if I have to ask it's already not free (emotionally)) none of those other things you've mentioned seem like a big deal for me.

> vigilant for pickpockets

In some places? Sure. But IMHO even in notorious cities like Barcelona it's not really that bad.

* well that's certainly not true.. but if you base your opinion on what some Europeans might be saying on Reddit/etc. you might end up believing stuff like this.

I'm sorry but the staff at American restaurants is extremely overbearing and come across as endlessly annoying. I can ask for water or extra dishes if I need them.

The necessity for tips is visible from a mile away.

When visiting Europe I've literally had to get up and find my waitress after not seeing her for 40+ minutes. I'll take tip culture any day...in sit down restaurants, at least.

Same, in Paris we've encountered the same hour-long "where's the waiter"

> why exactly would I want to visit Europe?

That’s okay, we don’t want you. I lived the first 28 years of my life in the downtown historic area of an increasingly touristy European capital and American tourists were always the worst :)

The Chinese tourists can be frustrating because they travel in tight packs and take up a lot of room, but at least they understand they’re not visiting an amusement park and are not the center of the world.

My favorite were always fellow European high school and college kids traveling in small groups. You’d never even realize they were tourists if not for the oversized backpacks. They just blend in, aren’t loud, respect the locals, and seek authentic experiences.

This makes zero sense.

Have you actually been to Europe? Paris/London has a few pickpockets problem but nothing come close to the violence in the states. And you can’t win when it comes to food. Most US food is garbage unless you are paying top dollars.

My last trip to Paris was 1 year ago and it was pretty bad compared to NYC, Los Angeles, and San Francisco for the average tourist - especially at night.

I live in the Paris area (initially came as a tourist) and I've visited San Francisco. It's all a matter of where exactly you are - there are bad parts and good parts. However, the worst parts of San Francisco were definitely worse than the worst parts of Paris (where no tourist has any reason to come close to, unlike in SF where it's literally a few blocks away from major tourist attractions).

You don't see people shooting heroin literally 5 metres away from a tourist attraction in Paris (for the record - right next to the queue of tourists to get on the cable car at Powell/Market stop).

As an almost life long New Yorker it pains me, truly, to read this. People used to fear this city and that kept the “average tourist” (which includes super lovely people like my parents btw) well away from the Big Apple. Oh how I miss those days. Now any average tourist feels perfectly safe in our city and no longer fears us locals. This is not good. It’s almost like being colonized, like what happened to those poor poor Barceloni. One day they had a beautiful city (though it did smell like dog shit everywhere) and before you know it they lost it to the tourists. I fear this has already happened to Manhattan, though over here in Brooklyn we do our bit to instill the necessary respect for locals and their customs for the tourists. (Yes they come over here and look at graffiti on the wall to the great amusement of us locals.)

Because it’s better in every way you didnt list. Have you never been to a European capital? The quality of life enjoyed there is amazing.

not always.

From personal experience, most large French cities (Toulouse, Lyon...) have higher QoL than Paris, for much lower prices. Would not be surprised if this is also true for London/rest of UK, perhaps other countries as well.

Had a friend say the same was similar for Amsterdam vs other cities (eg Eindhoven) in the Netherlands

Even in the US, it's probably easier to have a nice life on a reasonable budget in someplace like Denver or St Louis than in NYC or Washington DC. Capitals tend to expensive, crowded and loud.

> virtually no one in America will complain about your accent or grammar.

I grew up in Houston. I've heard enough rich Texans bitching about Mexicans not speaking English to disagree with that statement.

I live in Europe and have never been stolen from, and I‘ve been on plenty vacations abroad. And in many places you do get free tap water (eg London or Vienna) with food. IDK why you would care about the price of tap water though since that’s probably 0,1% of your traveling budget for a city trip.

Taxes are country specific, you‘ll find some EU countries with lower taxation than your average US state, eg Bulgaria.

Being rude on Twitter won’t land you in jail, please.

> why exactly would I want to visit Europe?

Business, sightseeing, and cheap dentistry.

https://www.theverge.com/2022/3/31/23004339/uk-twitter-user-...

Jail time was on the table in this instance I had in mind.

The conviction rates for illegal tweets in Europe are much lower than, say, gun murder rates in the US.

That is, what you're saying is even more ridiculous than an European refusing to go to the US for fear of getting shot in the streets.

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> why you would care about the price of tap water

Because I have to ask and unless I'm explicit they'll bring a 330 mL glass bottle which is extremely annoying. That forces me to drink beer all the time just to avoid that which is not exactly ideal.

> eg Bulgaria

The VAT there is 20% which is much higher than any place in the US.

> That forces me to drink beer all the time

My opinion of American tourists is such that I can't tell if this is a joke, and I'm Canadian, ffs.

Well.. I'm European, it's only half a joke though.

Maybe the three of you should go to a bar and get this joke over with.

Oh I thought we were talking income tax. VAT rates are not a concern if prices are generally low, like in Bulgaria.

Drinking beer so you don’t need to drink water from a bottle - well ok, you do you.

Nobody forces you to visit Europe. I don't want to visit USA, so I don't go there to complain about what I dislike.

> That said, you’ll never get the level of service you see in USA. The French (Europe in general) just don’t care that much about customer UX. You either do it their way or you can leave.

I hate service in American restaurants. I don’t want to be babysit and have someone always behind me. I can fill my glass myself just fine, and I am able to call if I need something. I just want to be left alone to enjoy the meal and company without being watched. That said, Paris tends to be a caricature of a different kind, sure.

The tipping culture sure made some nights unpleasant when I traveled.

hahaha .. I have to lough hard. That is so True. Many people in paris speak english but the only way to get them to speak it is by speaking bad french. And they hate you for that.

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