Hacker News Reader

Comment by johngossman | Hacker News Reader

I’ve been thinking about that too. I guess I want the equivalent of a hard scifi that goes into Elvish biology, culture, economics. The population has been declining for millennia, so a huge construction industry recession, presumably overall deflation, shrinking GDP. They don’t age and they have very few children, so presumably no school system, no retirement homes. It’s not clear if Elves get sick, so medicine probably entirely a military function. I’m pretty sure Elves heal, perhaps even regrow limbs, otherwise just random accidents and war wounds would leave a lot of crippled, blind Elves, but Tolkien seems to they all look youthful, clear skin, no obvious wounds.

Technology is static, perhaps even going backwards since the First Age, so no startups, no banking. Do Elves have money?

So many questions

View on HN

> Do Elves have money?

That question could be asked about almost everyone in Middle Earth given how little discussion there is of it. The only explicit mention of a price that I can remember is the twelve silver pennies that are paid to Bill Ferny for his pony (and an additional eighteen paid by Butterbur to Merry as compensation for the lost animals). One would assume that money is used in the Shire, but it is never mentioned--for example, we never see anyone actually paying for drinks at the Green Dragon. Everywhere else items just appear and there is no discussion of any of the behind the scenes processes that produce them or how those processes work.

The book does say that Bilbo comes from a wealthy family. And becomes even richer thanks to his share of treasure from that adventure with the dragon and the dwarves.

> The book does say that Bilbo comes from a wealthy family.

Yes, and that the Sackville-Bagginses are particularly focused on wealth. Tolkien may not discuss specific financial exchanges in the Shire much, but he does paint a picture of the socioeconomic hierarchy and the position of the characters from the Shire within it.

Yes, good point. Also the gold from the trolls in The Hobbit.

> assume that money is used in the Shire, but it is never mentioned

That would be naff

> ’m pretty sure Elves heal, perhaps even regrow limbs, otherwise just random accidents and war wounds would leave a lot of crippled, blind Elves, but Tolkien seems to they all look youthful, clear skin, no obvious wounds.

Tolkien and Peter Jackson shouldn't be confused. There are plenty of maimed elves. Maedhros, the eldest son of Feanor, was one-handed after his hand was cut off. Turin was also friends Gwindor, who was crippled, maimed, and somehow disfigured. His brother was also blinded, then later dismembered in front of Gwindor.

Hmmmph. I would never confuse Tolkien for Jackson, I simply forgot about these cases. Thanks for the reminder. My thought is like this: I have a collection of small scars from burning myself on hot pans, nicking myself climbing over a barbed wire fence, etc. If I were Elrond’s age, especially if I was a warrior and training for war, I’d be a mass of scars unless there was some sort of healing going on. Maybe they are exceptionally careful. Whether it just happens or maybe they use healing spells, but I suspect some sort of regeneration of at least minor wounds.

Gandalf does mention that Bilbo's mithril chain mail is worth more than the whole Shire, so there is some representation of monetary value.

That line has always stuck out and annoyed me. What does that even mean in the context of Middle Earth economy? Who could pay that much to determine the price?

Maybe it’s a naïve calculation extrapolated from more realistic exchanges of small bits of mithril for reasonable plots of land? Then if you multiple the land by the amount of mithril in the mail, you get something bigger than the shire?

Maybe I’ve answered my own question now…

I grew up in a rural area. I remember clearly our high school teacher talking about some government boondoggle and he walked us through a black board calculation that showed that it wasted more money than the entire worth of all the homes and farms in the dozen or so towns and villages our high school drew from.

The mithril coat was beautiful, rare, made of the most valuable metal in existence and, essentially, magical.

Thought it was a good comparison.

“Worth” could be interpreted broadly - not necessarily putting a figure on it. Perhaps there were covetous men who would desire the mithril more than they would desire ownership of a large plot of land.

Maybe though, even Gandalf sometimes engages in figures of speech? I think he just meant to say that the chainmail is abstractly very valuable.

Gandalf was clearly a sith, only a sith deals in abstractions.

It reminds me of the Japanese bubble economy of the 1980s when it was claimed that (due to absurd real estate prices in Tokyo) that the Imperial Palace was worth more than all of California.

https://www.scmp.com/magazines/style/news-trends/article/309...

Gandalf is more or less a demigod/angel with a sort of focus on wisdom and a particular interest in the importance of the overlooked “common people” of Middle Earth, so it wouldn’t be that surprising, I guess, for him to have a magical insight into the value of the Shire.

Given that he tends see overlooked value in these common folks, it does seem wildly out of character that he would compare the value of their entire little community to a piece of armor, however fine. Although, I guess, it isn’t like he’s rubbing it in Frodo’s face or anything. I guess he just wanted Gimli to appreciate the value of the gift…

I think it's just him highlighting the rarity and value of something that would otherwise never be accessible to them. In the middle ages would an extremely high-end suit of armour cost less than a village? I don't know, but rarity was at a higher premium for elite goods back then.

Quite common brands sell handbags that cost several month's rent of a western european house. An airplane costs millions. Military planes billions. Amounts so staggering large they could easily pay for the rebuilding of entire countries after a disaster.

> for elite goods back then

This hasn't changed.

perfect. so gandalf's point stands.

>Who could pay that much to determine the price?

Maybe a King who wants to survive a piercing from a cave troll?

Indeed. “A horse, a horse, my kingdom for a horse!”

The value of things can vary heavily depending on circumstances.

From the anthropology I've been reading, it seems that many societies got by with debt -- and complex forms of it! -- with no need for money. Especially because of their long lives and stable communities, debt relations would be effective for elves. Money is only necessary in a society where a transaction is indeed transactional, independent from future relationship.

In the second or the third movie about Bilbo, this is revealed a bit, when the Elven king is ranting against this or that. During talking, he "drops" his magic a bit, and you can see that underneath magical makeup, he's severely scarred in his face.

This is the scene, Thranduil telling Thorin Oakenshield “Do not talk to me of dragon fire! I know its wrath and ruin. I have faced the great serpents of the North!”:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9se3S5UaPU

Elves are a magical race.

Without a source of magic they eventually lose their bodies and diminish into woodland spirits.

You can't have elves without magic and still have them be elves.

They literally disappear any place without some amount of magic.

Elves "fade" because they live so long their spirits gradually "wear out" their bodies due to the fallen nature of the material world (thanks to Morgoth), which the power of the Valar can repair - the Valar also literally reincarnate them when they die, because Elves are not supposed to be without bodies in Valinor period (unless they've been bad.) They are quite capable of living for many, many thousands of years without any "source of magic".

I think RoP introduced this idea, but it is not in Tolkien.

I'm not sure I like that you say this as though it's an absolute truth versus your own interpretation of what "elves" are and this theory about them turning into woodland spirits.

First of all, elves appear in many different books, series, movies, and there are no hard and fast "rules" for elves. I mean, they're fictional first of all! There are no dogmatic universal laws governing them.

Also, in the Lord of the Rings, there is nothing canonical that states elves lose their bodies and become woodland spirits without "magic."

Elves do Fade and become disembodied spirits haunting remote places, maybe even to this day, according to Tolkien. Manipulating those spirits was the main reason Sauron was called the Necromancer.

It’s just a natural process that has nothing to do with “sources of magic”, Elves lived the vast majority of their time in ME without “sources of magic.” This conceit came from Rings of Power, I am pretty sure.

> Without a source of magic they eventually lose their bodies and diminish into woodland spirits.

Maybe an external battery might help?

Electricity is for the orc

I've always assumed that commerce was diminished in the area LotR takes place because, generally speaking, all the nations are in decline. Population or otherwise.

Tolkien's elves have a very strong innate ability to resist what you might call "corruption" of the body and mind. They are basically minor demigods.

http://www.istad.org/tolkien/nestad.html

http://www.istad.org/tolkien/healingStudy.html

Is there a mention of any elvish kids at all in all of his work?

The reason Eldar children are rare is that elves progress through childhood and youth at the same rate as humans, then have an indefinite adulthood. So for an elf that lives say 2k years, they spend 1% of their life as a child.

I’m sorry but that would mean myself, my parents, and my grandparents would all look the same age.

Like my grandmothers high school history teacher could be marry my son.

Creepy.

I don't see why that's "creepy", just because it seems weird to you and too hard to contemplate. In a future world where people stop aging at adulthood, this would be normal: everyone would seem to be 25 or 30, and there could be huge age-gaps in relationships. Why is that wrong?

In practice, however, age itself would probably become valuable on the dating market. Since people would look young indefinitely (until some tragic accident), youth probably wouldn't be valued any more, but quite the opposite: older people would have valuable and interesting life experience, and probably better finances too thanks to compound interest. So your grandmother's high school teacher might not be that interested in your son because he's too young and inexperienced.

Another thing that would likely happen is that relationships would no longer be assumed to be life-long. We already have accepted divorce pretty well these days, but in the ageless future, it'll probably be normal for marriage-type relationships to have pre-agreed time limits.

Neuroplasticity, and the loss thereof with age would cause older elves to get quite ornery and unsociable. The only active elvish couple depicted is Galadriel and Celeborn.

Tolkien actually wrote a lot on this sort of stuff, you can find it in the Nature of Middle Earth. Elven marriages are, however, lifelong. Even the death of a spouse did not permit remarriage, except in on very exceptional case.

FWIW, Elven childhood and growth was actually also much longer than human childhood, but it was quick in the eyes of the Elves.

> Even the death of a spouse did not permit remarriage

that's because on death elves reincarnate in Valinor. The exception was given when the spouse refused to reincarnate (and a lot of pain resulted form that incident).

Arwen is over 2000 years old when she marries Aragon. She is related to him by her grandfather Eärendil (which is a grand, grand grand ancestor of Aragon through Elros).

Ouch nobody called my out of my misspelling (twice) of Aragorn. I'll surrender my Nerd card.

There’s nothing creepy about most relationships. Most of the world had women getting married at 14. We just put a stop to it because we don’t like the power imbalance but there’s nothing inherently wrong with it.

The youngest named character would be Nellas who briefly befriended young Turin in the woods of Doriath.

No elves are portrayed during their actual childhood, but elvish geneaologies are clearly stated. For example, Celebrian, the wife of Elrond and mother of Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen, is the daughter of Celeborn and Galadriel.

Incidentally, Tolkien portrayed many half-elves during their childhood. Elwing, Elured, and Elurin were young children when the sons of Fëanor destroyed Doriath. Eärendil fled the destruction of Gondolin as a young child. And Elrond and Elros were young children when the remaining sons of Fëanor destroyed the Havens of Sirion. Bad luck runs in the family, or something.

> Tolkien portrayed many half-elves during their childhood.

Yes, unfortunately we don't have more detailed portrayals since those passages in The Silmarillion are very brief.

I had the same thought: iirc, all the “elf children” Tolkien wrote about (albeit briefly) were half- elves. I can retcon explanations but have to wonder if Tolkien was intentional about that.

Thinking from a purely authorial standpoint, half-elves give a connection to the human audience, while full-elves are meant to be out of reach and ethereal.

The reason you would not write a scene with your ultimate villain on the toilet is the same impulse Tolkien may have felt here.

I think just not many elves where born in Middle-Earth, at least among the Noldor, which are the focus of a lot of JRRT stories.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com