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Comment by Timon3 | Hacker News Reader

A toggle works fine if it's not treated as boolean, due to the exact problem you mention. What fixes it for me is having the meaning spelled out on both sides of the toggle, e.g. like this:

  dark (o  ) light

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I agree, but it seems like a lot of times you get:

    (o foo)
    (bar o)

And I don't know if I'm supposed to click it to change to `foo`, or if that means it is already in the `foo` mode.

That's definitely much worse, both due to what you describe, and due to the fact that you don't know what the label on the other side says.

Separately, some UI's make it very hard to tell which side is selected. It's a rare problem, but especially anxiety-inducing for me when it does appear.

(o ) "Do you want to receive marketing emails from our partners?"

This is absolutely a dark pattern.

Even worse when there's not even a grammatical structure, like

"opt-out options"

"annoying marketing emails (o )"

am i... enabling the thing? opting out of the thing?

It's also a stupid pattern. Privacy and spam laws usually require informed consent. They might as well just not ask for anything, because any consent they get this way doesn't count for shit.

This can be used as a dark pattern. If you want a user to use a particular setting (e.g. “Customize my ad experience.”) you can just make it unclear which they’re choosing.

are you using anxiety with a bit of hyperbole here, or is it really making you anxious? I can see it being confusing and needing extra time to really look at it rather than being instantly obvious, but it's nothing to cause stress. It's just a setting/option. It's not going to cause significant issues if misinterpreted. You can just set it the other way, and do it again.

Is this the same thing that separates those that like to mash all the buttons and twist all the knobs to see what happens vs those that don't want to touch anything because they don't know what will happen?

The worst offender to me is the ambiguous ui around creating a teams meeting for meetings created through whatever we are calling the outlook web thing these days. You don’t find out if you did it right until you have sent an email to your attendees with an erroneous teams link. And yes that is anxiety provoking.

Of course part of what makes it ambiguous is that there is a setting somewhere completely different which when set will add a teams link whether the slider is set or not.

> are you using anxiety with a bit of hyperbole here, or is it really making you anxious?

Depends on the setting. Sometimes they're for things that have greater than usual effects, like getting locked into a subscription payment or agreeing to additional charges for Spirit Airline flights. Other times they're for things that I have difficulty taking the initiative to address, like notification/unsubscribe settings, for which my ADHD only allows me occasional "windows" of time where I'm able to initiate or follow-through on changing the settings.

Sometimes it doesn't really matter and I just scoff at the bad UI and it's not a problem.

(I'm gonna abuse your example to rant about dark mode selection interfaces.)

There's a small problem with your example: Dark mode isn't a binary setting.

For modern applications, there should be 3 settings: System, Light, and Dark. (I like to use a dropdown menu to select the theme).

This makes it work for people whose theme changes automatically between day and night (it's a built-in system setting on macOS, and possibly Windows). L

For a web app, Light and Dark can set a value in localStorage which sets the theme manually, but System should remove the setting.

You can detect the correct theme when the page is loaded, and also add an event listener to detect theme changes (so that either the user or the OS can change the current theme). It's actually not too difficult to set up properly.

I think the first widespread use of a toggle was in iOS a long time ago.

The core function of a toggle is to - well - toggle.

    Off (o  ) On

And the way it was used was

    Dark       (o  )

or Dark ( o)

Radio buttons would work better.

It depends on the structure of your site. If you have, say, 10 pairs of boolean options in quick succession, toggles work way better than radio buttons.

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