Hacker News Reader

Comment by Treegarden | Hacker News Reader

Funny, I actually go frequently to one or two of these, since I live in Berlin. I pay 42% taxes and still these government pools are not only a bit pricy (no discount if you want to go regularly) but they have terrible, irregular opening times. They will spontaneously close down for a month, without notice on their site or google maps, only putting a sheet of paper on the door. They will rotate opening times randomly. Even worse, they are not open (only charlottenburg, which is small) for around 6 months in the summer. This is because youre supposed to go to the outdoor pools but I want to go at 6pm after work when they close and even if they are open they are too cold. On hot days they might be fun but then they are notoriously overrun but low education bracket people that get into fist fights so vehemently it was a big topic in berlin this summer. As a response there where then a bunch of police people hanging out at the pool and now you need to show your id before entering.

View on HN

The article claims Berlin is one of the best places for public swimming and yet whenever I want to go it's literally impossible for me to find one that's open at a time I can go (i work a normal 40 hour week). I haven't been swimming in years because the situation is just useless.

It feels like everything in Berlin requires you to queue or fight for an appointment slot, including the pools. Every public service without fail is a battle. It's tiring.

We just go to the lakes. It's a lovely bicycle ride.

Yeah, Berlin is a great city for many reasons, but its administration is not one if its strengths, to put it mildly.

The surrounding lakes are definitely nice, just not compatible with the climate for say 8 out of the 12 months, so a better/cheaper/more accessible selection of indoor pools would be nice. And a solution to the cesspool that is the open air pools, where a certain demographic is ruining it for everyone (and has done so for decades).

> but its administration is not one if its strengths, to put it mildly.

You've just described the whole country, TBH.

I don't know where you live or what experiences you've made but I just had a look into my municipalities online appointment system and there are 5 slots free to book just for tommorow.

I lived in Germany about a decade ago.

The Germany federal government’s procurement process is kafkaesque at best (especially the armed forces); Germany spends as much on defence as France, yet France has a nuclear deterrent, nuclear subs, a nuclear aircraft carrier, and a sizable fighter jet fleet - all domestically designed and built. Germany’s government barely maintains its kit.

The railways are late a third of the time. The Swiss want to ban Deutsche Bahn trains because they’re causing so many problems.

The German telecom operators are terrible. Domestic internet is slow and the cell phone networks are the same.

The country just doesn’t invest in itself and when it does it can’t effectively execute.

I’m not saying Germany is a shithole, but its government bureaucracy is generally terrible and business administration lackluster (and yes, there are exceptions to the rule).

I’ll add that I’ll tear the shit out of my home country (Canada) similarly. We have similar issues with government procurement.

> The railways are late a third of the time. The Swiss want to ban Deutsche Bahn trains because they’re causing so many problems.

That's not quite correct. What the SBB (Swiss Federal Railways) started to do is to not allow German trains onto the network if they're massively delayed (I think massively being more than 15 minutes), which, of course happens a lot.

My take is that it's partially educational (as in get your shit together if you want to use our network) and partially it really is a logistical problem and messes up the network.

The train network in Switzerland is used so densely that allowing too many delayed trains onto it has a serious impact and would incur knock on effects.

Berlin just does it worse, even though it has greater challenges that explain it.

Check out the public pool in Kleinmachnow during the summer - far fewer crowds and very nice water.

One doesn't need to work and pay taxes in Berlin to take a bicycle ride there, and better don't enter into or swim in its murky lakes and ponds.

There are many more good reasons to live in this dysfunctional hellhole of a city. Otherwise I'd have left a long time ago. No matter what, I still love it there.

>There are many more good reasons to live in this dysfunctional hellhole of a city

What are those reasons, that don't also exist in other better-run European cities, like Vienna for example? At least there you don't have to fight 200 other people for a shitty overpriced apartment.

I also like Berlin to visit, attend tech conferences or meet-up, concerts and parties, but moving there now would simply wear me out.

They're personal, but it's just a fun city to live in. Besides, I've spent too much time on that damn paperwork to give up!

>They're personal, but it's just a fun city to live in

Sure that's understandable, but that's nothing objective in that, that's just a personal choice based on personal taste and circumstances, which can apply to any other city if you think about it.

There are so many other fun cities in Europe where you don't have to put up with all that nonsense.

That's nothing special to warrant overhyping Berlin even further, it already suffers from a branch of the Paris syndrome they could call it Berlin syndrome.

Agree. DACH countries are among the most desirable for immigrants globally. Natives are hyper self-aware about their desirability and one can feel it when negotiating a job with them or making business with them. Many immigrants (ehem.... expats) masochistically buy into their hosts' superiority. Well if suffering if fun for them... in the end masochism is invention of German speaking world.

Absolutely. I ended up here by chance. It could have been elsewhere. To each their own.

If that makes you feel better, in Paris even the city acknowledges that we need 2.5x the number of lines that we have to support the demand, and there is no way we ever reach that given how the city is built. And yet we often have entire pools closed for associative activities such as diving, training for "high level" clubs, and whatnot.

I'm all for children activities and aquatic gym for the elderly but I really don't see the value of using public pools for guys who "train" 3 hours a day just because they are part of some subsidized group, especially knowing that 99% of those have never done anything at the elite level. If you want to train at a high level just finance it for yourself, I'm locked out of my couple hours per week to get my back healthy (and many others are).

I'm presently pre-registering for a private pool that's going to be 10x more expensive (and I'm still paying the taxes that finances not only the pool but also the training programs of the subsidized orgs that train in my city's public pool).

A hint on fixing your problem, I have done my fair share of work in sports clubs, assuring the elite gets training time and money to be able to train. You need big support organization around the elite to make them viable.

They do pay and finance their own training but the elite can never afford to build exclusive infrastructure for youth to adult, you will always have an overlap with the club competitions. You need a good base to be able to build an elite. That is what that exclusive pool time is ment to build.

If you need more well run public pools the greatest partners are those "high level" clubs. They most certainly feel you pain.

Show me any major desirable city in EU where it's not the case. One contributes monthly to various social and public polls of money and is shifted at the end of the queue every time, as the queues are on the best effort basis but with too many privileged people and organizations. Real estate prices are the ultimate slap in the face.

Ghent, Belgium

Don't knock on diving! It's constantly under attack at pools all over the parts of the world where legal liability is any bit of a factor. So hard to find any place that will let you dive these days. Although too bad they close the whole pool. They should have a bulkhead or separate diving basin ideally.

You are not providing any argument, apart from you wanting to dive. But it procures much more health to many people to use basins for swimming, so diving should be removed. Besides, diving is a set of things to learn, so learning diving on holidays is sufficient. Like windsurf. “Don’t knock on windsurfing at my local pool” wouldn’t cross my mind.

Springboard and tower diving, not scuba.

Just to provide some counterpoint to this: I regularly go with my kids in the winter weekends, and aside from the Wellenbad ("wave pool") in Görlitzer Park, which had a plumbing problem once when I went, I've never run across randomly closed pools. We didn't go much last winter since they'd lowered the temperatures because of the war in Ukraine and rationing of gas, but we went a lot the year before and a couple times already this year. They've never been painfully crowded -- in fact, usually the opposite, usually pretty empty. We've gone in Kreuzberg, Neukölln, Lichtenberg and Schöneberg.

I live very close to stadtbad mitte featured in the article. It's a very nice building with a spectacular glass roof. As the article mentioned, it took a direct hit from a bomb during WW II but it landed in the pool so the building survived.

It has a nice 50 meter pool. Unfortunately it gets very crowded and the water can be a bit dirty when too many people have been in it. But it's great when you manage to find the pool empty (try late at night). The last few times I was there I came out with irritated skin. That's the chlorine reacting with the nasty stuff in the water. So, those two things are kind of keeping me from swimming there regularly. It's a pity because it's just a 3 minute walk from my door and I could definitely use the exercise. I've also used one of the nearby outdoor pools. Much better quality water. But you need to go early before the big crowds show up. And of course they are only open in the summer. The water being cold is a feature. Once you get moving you stop noticing it.

The summer closures are a bit annoying but understandable. And the opening times shifting around through the year and week are also annoying. Makes it hard to plan when to go. They are usually pretty good at putting those on the website though. Basically, they adapt to the schools and holidays, which are heavy users of these pools. Lots of classes of kids learning to swim during the week.

> As the article mentioned, it took a direct hit from a bomb during WW II but it landed in the pool so the building survived.

Pools near me (New Zealand) have ‘no bombing’ signs. I wonder if the jump-into-pool-holding-knees manoeuvre is called ‘bombing’ in German?

It is and there's the variant where you go bottoms first which is called... "Arschbombe" - "Ass-Bomb".

Known as a "Manu" in NZ and sometimes performed with a rugby ball for spectacular effect.

https://youtu.be/2MJx39QjHqs?si=hyb71y3Od9nq6W9-

In the US we call it a cannonball! Splooosh!

Yes it is

I wonder if the pool was water filled when the bomb exploded. I know nothing about explosives in buildings, but underwater explosions are nastier than unconfined air explosions.

I am not an explosion expert, but if a bomb explodes inside water, then the water surely will absorb energy. And I watched the controlled demolition of a WW2 bomb - where they indeed put lots of bags filled with water over it - to minimize the blast.

> I pay 42% taxes and still these government pools are not only a bit pricy

You're eligible only for making a shopping at Lidl and Netto after work, and for paying Rundfunkbeitrag. As I had heard multiple times while on full time employment in Berlin and seeing over 40% cut off on my monthly payslip: "beggars can't be choosers".

Do people not research the tax rate before moving to Germany? It comes with free roads, education and health care, by the way. Not saying we shouldn't get more out of it, mind you, but it's not like the taxes turn into thin air. And Berlin is a bit special in that its administration is kind of bad and always had been. You get the live and let live attitude and a lot less sticks up people's butts (compared to say southern Germany), but it also does feel at times like you're not getting as much out of the taxes as you should.

The Rundfunkbeitrag can eat a bag of dicks though, zero argument there.

Germany is one of the highest taxed countries in Europe, and I'm not aware of it having particularly higher welfare than e.g the Nordics where tax levels are lower. I'm generally skeptical to people complaining about taxes, but Germany and Belgium (which is the only one I'm aware of more expensive than Germany) appear to be outliers.

Yeah my eyes are bulging every time I find a job posting based in Brussels or Antwerp and then quickly run some gross-net simulations online. Whait... what?! Over 50% monthly on contributions and taxes? What the fucking fuck?! Employees of EU and other institutions have generous exempts and privileges, otherwise I have no idea what might be the motivation of a person employed in Belgium.

Looking at the OECD data, one thing that is striking is that Belgium "rejoins the pack" if you look at the tax burden for a two-parent single-earner family.

Looking at the list (OECD Taxing Wages), I'm going to hazard a guess that it's a cultural/religious thing - it looks like the drop in the average tax rate as a proportion of household income for a single-earner vs. the same income for a single person is far greater in countries with a significant proportion of Catholics.

If you're counting healthcare, then you should add the health insurance to the taxes too.

That's brings it up above 50%

I indeed did some net-gross calculations online but the last glimmer of hope was saying "people live there it cannot be that bad, can it?".

It depends, there is no student loan debt, no healthcare debt, and you won't be homeless if shit hits the fan, so we got that going over what's happening across the pond. On the flip side, you get robbed a bit at the salary takeout.

It would be nice if it wasn't mostly middle class that gets fleeced though, and it would also lovely if more money would flow into keeping infrastructure intact, like schools. But again, that's Berlin for ya.

It appears that Germany has more homeless per capita than the US.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_...

There are problems with the Rundfunkbeitrag, such as that pensions for retirees from high positions are too high but it provides free* access to high quality and verified news and a diverse cultural and informational program. There is a strong argument this important public service should be funded independently from tax money.

It's really hard for me to not think of mallice when people say things like "The governments takes half my money!"

In germany, when having a (quite high) 100k pay, you effectively pay aprx. 32% taxes on it. I think thats fair considering wellfare, healthcare, studying, school etc. is free.

42% is just the percentage you pay on the income beyond ~65000. The first 65k are taxed lower (in increasing steps)

Sure, some financial things are very hard in germany. But especially as a "regular" citizen, or when you have hard times, you are cared for quite well.

I said clearly about total deductions seen on monthly payslip, gross to net. Income tax is only part of them.

> when you have hard times, you are cared for quite well.

In hard times you better don't lose Anmeldung (e.g. asshole host deregistering you by sending an email), because then the delicate and expensive support system collapses instantly for you.

> I pay 42% taxes

no, your highest bracket is 42%, what's under that threshold is less taxed

I mean, okay, but the 42% tax bracket in Germany starts at around 60k Euros. It certainly seems possible that a person who makes what we'd consider a fairly normal-for-HN amount of money is seeing an overall tax rate that's pretty close to 42%.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you'd have to be making well over €300k in order to have an effective tax rate above 40% there—normal for senior engineers at FAANG in the US maybe, but definitely not as normal for the same roles in Europe.

...unless you count Social security contributions as taxes, in which case you will reach 42% taxes a lot quicker, especially if you also account for the 50% your employer pays or you are self-employed.

I used a german tax calculator and put in a 200k Euro income and it told me my take-home would be 102k. I dunno if I screwed it up or anything -- I don't know a lot of German tax law.

€200k is not a normal developer salary in Berlin. In fact, it's more like 3x a normal salary. It doesn't make sense applying Silicon Valley salaries to other places.

Okay, but on the other hand my parent poster made the claim that you'd need a salary of well over 300k to get an above-40% effective tax rate, and I notice that you don't seem to have taken issue with him. This feels like an isolated demand for rigor.

The person who set off this thread made no claim to be a typical Berlin developer, he just said that he paid 42% taxes, and someone challenged that claim. If everyone's being super careful about using very precise language, fine, but that needs to be everyone being super careful about using very precise language, not just people you disagree with.

Other people had already responded with what I'd have said. There was no need for me to chime in too.

Social charges are taxes. From 100k EUR you will receive only 58k if you are in class 1 in Berlin, so OP may be pretty honest ob that.

And if you include the employer's tax contribution, sale tax, taxes on fuel, rent, electricity, etc. you are quickly approaching 70-80% of value produced going to the government in some way or another.

https://www.brutto-netto-rechner.info/

put 5000€/month, Klasse 1, Berlin.

Netto = 3094,05 €. That's 38,11%.

42% is not that far.

I pay like half of the taxes and most public baths in my area are free and indoor ones are reasonable priced.

No idea why Berlin should be special in that regard.

Berlin is infamously dysfunctional in many respects. All while being propped up by the Länderfinanzausgleich for decades (86 billion Euros received in 28 years, look at the leftmost column of https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A4nderfinanzausgleich#Fin...)

Small consolidation, but there’s a public outdoor pool across the street from my house. It’s never open when I can use it. In fact, it’s been closed for 3 years now, first because they couldn’t find lifeguards to staff it, then because it needed major overhaul. But, prior to that, it was open weekdays from noon-6pm. By the time I got home from work, walked the dog, and went for a jog, the pool was closed. Shame, it would be perfect for a summer evening dip. Oh well.

With your large earnings you will have no problem paying for membership of a nice spa club of which there are many in Berlin. These places are not overrun with 'low education bracket people' as you put it but sadly however a scourge of a different sort, namely what I would describe as 'clueless ignorant pricks'....

Would that apply to the https://www.tropical-islands.de/ too? I mean all of it, opening times, pricing, people, whatnot. Only catch would be the distance.

> they are notoriously overrun but low education bracket people that get into fist fights so vehemently

I don’t understand the need to make this elitist statement? In fact, why is shutting up and complaining on HN your preferred solution?

>I don’t understand the need to make this elitist statement?

What's elitist about some facts? Do you know many chemistry PhDs who get into fist fights or do they tend to avoid conflicts? Overall the more educated and intelligent a populace is, the less physical violence and crime there is.

Not everyone who is poorly educated starts fist fights, but people starting fist fights are always poorly educated and low intelect, who give in to their instincts telling them conflicts are solved by acting like a silverback gorilla.

Sometimes they are U.S. Senators [1] or CEOs [2].

[1] https://apnews.com/video/united-states-senate-sean-obrien-ma...

[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk_vs._Mark_Zuckerber...

I think there's a difference between a mutually agreed upon fight and an unprovoked attack which is what you'd have a good chance of seeing in swimming pools where I live.

I was physically assaulted by a high ranking PhD in the lab where I worked. Anyone can be crazy.

That's what academia does to ya'. /s (but only slightly)

Yeah anyone can be crazy and assult others, but the frequency of occurrences is what makes the difference.

That's bullshit. I see drunk students every day. And they are supposed to be the future elites- may God help us all.

Now that's some boomer bullshit. Look at adults, not at kids,.

Yes, we were all youngsters at one point and did stupid shit as kids (drunken parties, drugs, etc). That doesn't mean most of those haven't straightened up as adults and became peaceful, productive members of society and loving parents to well raised kids who will in turn do stupid shit as teenagers before growing up to become functioning adults.

This comment is not elitist, it is an unfortunate truth. Moreover, this happened only quite recently. What you are not supposed to say out loud is the fact that the majority of these "low education bracket people" who a behaving badly in public pools are young Muslim men who recently immigrated as refugees.

This is not at all a recent phenomenon. A couple of decades ago, when going to open air baths in Berlin after school, the same things could be observed. Same clientele as well though, low class, low education, patriarchal and religious young men, predominantly.

I have been living in Berlin for more than four decades and, yes, it’s a recent problem.

Then maybe you didn't visit public baths as a youth, because I don't know what to tell you, it's been an issue as long as I can remember (born here, close to four decades ago).

> they are notoriously overrun but low education bracket people

The poster was already pretty educated in his comment. Let's say that after every summer the right wing party in Germany is earning new voters...

Reply on news.ycombinator.com