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> "the system carefully opened it for me to delight me with some low-quality not-even-local news"

To be fair, Apple does this exact same thing on their operating system. On a freshly installed iPhone, swipe right at the home screen. It takes you to the widget screen which is loaded by default with Apple News showing random junk.

Microsoft deserves the flak for turning Windows 11 into a billboard, but Apple isn't immune to this either.

While Apple is far from perfect, the difference in extent between the two is pretty dramatic. I switched back to MacOS from Windows this year because Windows 11 was annoying me to no end. Microsoft has gone much farther down the anti-user experience road.

>On a freshly installed iPhone, swipe right at the home screen

I've used iPhones for 15 years and never noticed that. There's a difference between having Apple apps available if you want them, compared to things in your face when you don't do anything and don't want them.

This is only true if you are in a country which is supported by Apple News. Mine isn't.

But it does indicate that Apple is following the same path.

But they don't do the exact same thing at all. One comes preloaded with apps you didn't choose and news or ads right on the task bar. Apple does none of that.

By default, Apple loads up the news widget in the macOS notification area.

Clicking on a story opens it in the Apple News app, which is also in your dock by default.

Do you want me to understand a news app or widget as the same thing as unwarranted ads in the start menu?

Here's what the OP described as happening on their new Windows install:

> I remember the first time I used a Windows system last year after tens of years on Linux/OSX, and it was really a somewhat strange experience: the moment I connected the ethernet cable I was instantly looking at random flashy news articles from another part of the world. Not in the browser, not in some kind of "News" app, but right in my taskbar! The most amazing part is that I did not even have to click on it – the system carefully opened it for me to delight me with some low-quality not-even-local news.

Same thing happens on new macOS installs.

macOS does not have a task bar and that paragraph specifically says that the flashing items did not even show in a news app. The criticism of Apple here says that they have a news app and that it shows news.

It is not the same thing and it won't be the same thing no matter how many times you say it. It simply isn't!

The iPhone home screen performs the same function as the Windows Start menu.

A news widget on one is the same as a news widget on the other.

Swiping away (to the right) from the Home Screen, will take you to the widget area from which you can immediately remove the news widget with two or so taps, and that setting will get preserved. So not really the same as pressing start to search for an app to launch. I think in your example the equivalent would be going to the iOS App Library list and then seeing ads and widgets there, which does not happen.

You have to open the widget board on Windows to be shown the news widget that the OP was talking about. There's separate Start and widget board buttons in the taskbar.

Smartphones are not desktop computers and they behave differently.

That a smartphone comes preloaded with some news app is not unexpected behavior. That a desktop operating system is not "clean" from first install is absolutely not acceptable.

Apple preloads the phone with commercial apps that I didn't ask for like Apple Music, and those apps will get automatically triggered for some content. They show news and other unsolicited content practically in the home screen (the widget screen is just a swipe away, every user will stumble there). What's the difference?

I think people are a bit blind to Apple's defaults. They compare a fresh Windows 11 install to their own customized iOS install with a decade of history, and conclude that Microsoft is so much worse. But the out of the box experience for a new user isn't all that different, IMHO. (MacOS is still better than Windows in many respects, but it's been steadily moving closer to iOS and comes with an ever-growing pile of Apple default apps loaded in the Dock and set as defaults.)

Yes, it does come with Apple Music (and whatever Apple News it - perhaps I've missed it?) And they do nag about using Apple Music a lot.

I dislike that they do this and Apple can be criticised for a million different things. 1) this is not it; 2) this is not what Microsoft is doing.

It has filled the Dock with (all) Apple apps the last 15+ years.

I don't quite understand why you're comparing a desktop OS to the phone OS, but I guess that can make some sense?

Let's compare apps from the article.

"Camera, Cortana/CoPilot, and Photos can now be uninstalled". Mac and iOS come with PhotoBooth/Camera, Siri and Photos preinstalled, I don't think can be removed.

"No Bing, no Edge, no upselling." You can't remove Safari, comes with upselling to Apple drive.

Apple also comes preinstalled with Maps, Music, BookReader, NewsClient, MailClient, TV app, Notes app. For all I have better alternatives so tonnes of bloat and at worse many of them can't be completely disabled. They keep popping at some unexpected places.

For that matter popular linux distros come with similar apps, though through some maze in installer you may have been able to skip them.

We’re talking passed each other, because the parent is complaining that “random third party ads” are in the task bar, nothing to do with Microsoft and not relevant to the context they’re in.

Apple News could be criticized for having a default list of news sources and I think that’s fair. But the news app is first party. Apple Music could be criticized for its upselling, and that’s justified as heck, but it’s still first party.

However; Safari and edge aren’t comparable. Safari seems to be perfectly content in being relegated to storage, never to hit memory or the CPU again, and I believe it is possible to remove it. Edge begs for its life when you even consider installing an alternative browser.

That’s not the topic being discussed in this branch of the thread as far as I understood it, but even if you were to take that point it’s a very large difference.

It absolutely is the same thing Microsoft does, just with different branding. In fact, Apple was doing it before MS. If anything, MS is just copying Apple there.

The only difference is that they have been doing it for 15+ years and during this time they convinced you that it is okay that they do it on a pocket computer, as if it was somehow magically different.

Then we don't understand the phrase "the same thing" the same way.

An Apple box comes with Apple software and services. It does not come with third party apps preinstalled and it does not show me ads. The one exception that I can think of is in the App Store and in their TV offer, but this is not what you are talking about.

I disagree with a thousand things that Apple does but this comparison is disingenuous.

> I think people are a bit blind to Apple's defaults.

I think there is some truth to this. But the reason people are blind to it is that, even if Apple and Microsoft are doing the same thing philosophically to a degree, Apple’s implementation of it feels less aggressive, less cheap, and more easily turned off than MS’s approach (two taps to permanently remove the news widget).

For what it’s worth, Apple News, even the free version, is actually a half decent news app if you’re in a supported area for local news.

> comes with an ever-growing pile of Apple default apps loaded in the Dock and set as defaults

Realistically, this is the direction consumer workstations are heading, and it’s the right direction. The average user is nontechnical, and less interested in customization than functionality. They want apps preloaded and preset as defaults. For those who don’t, there’s always Linux. But I think it would be a misrepresentation to suggest this is somehow a bad thing or that the masses don’t want or wouldn’t benefit from this.

Not that I like the way Apple does business, but these days, phones are really used for distraction. So, it is a bit more logical to put a news aggregator there. At least you have to swipe right, and it is not doing it for you. At least it is not pushing this widget down your throat. And there's nothing like that on the desktop system. When you first launch and go through some onboarding wizards, it just stands amazingly still and chill. No single pixel of the interface is moving away or appearing in front of your face out of nowhere without your interaction

> It feels like you don't really own this system but use it in some kind of public library.

You don't, commercial OS manufacturers want you to see and treat your computers as app consoles, similar to game consoles.

They successfully got you to view phones and tablets as app consoles, the rest of your computers are next.

> What also caught my eye so much is the amount of branding around – there are Spotify, TikTok, Amazon Prime, Instagram, and Facebook Messenger icons right in your menu bar before you ever need them or attempt to download and discover these apps for yourself

Microsoft desperately wants you to use their app store to run these apps on your app console instead of on the web or on their competitors' app consoles.

> They successfully got you to view phones and tablets as app consoles, the rest of your computers are next.

Yes. Because it’s only logical. Go and watch what any person outside of tech circles do with their computer. Office, Chrome, Spotify, Steam, Minecraft. That’s it.

Saying this as a hardcore Linux and FOSS user.

Plenty HN folks cannot wrap their minds around that the world is in fact, changing once again from what they accustomed to.

> Go and watch what any person outside of tech circles do with their computer. Office, Chrome, Spotify, Steam, Minecraft. That’s it.

This has always been the case.

What's new is how OS manufacturers are forcing profitable and restrictive paradigms upon users that will allow them to capture ~30% of every software sale and online payment ever made on any phone, tablet or computer.

[Apple app dev smugness stops]

People really jumped head-first into dystopia innit?

The really shocking part of this is that people actually pay money for this experience. This reminds me of the adblocker wars: those who play smart and cheap are better off than those who play dumb and expensive. Shouldn't it be the other way around?

No, it works as intended, it’s Economics 101: market discrimination.

I had the same experience, I used Mac exclusively for almost 20 years.

I use a Mac for 99% of my work also and I have an employer supplied neutered PC which is generally fine.

I purchased a personal PC laptop with Windows "Pro"... What a sh!t experience. Riddled with rubbish and distractions.

I'm glad I saw this coming over ten years ago and ditched Windows back then. I probably told people at the time and they laughed.

Imagine having advertising in your own home. Ugh!

> Imagine having advertising in your own home

That's why people continue to use Windows Home and if you want to get pro level of ads in your OS you would use Windows Pro /s