Yes, you can install a dozen little extra utilities to customize your way out of most of these things... but I'm not going to. I use systems usually quite-close to stock because of how often I'm using not-my-system or how often the system is reimaged or whatever. Also it's a corporate machine and I can't be bothered to see if each and every bodge-app is permitted by security policy.
The hardware is very nice, however. I would totally buy a MBP personally if I could run Windows or Fedora on it, and swap the keyboard for something sensible.
One of the first things I install on a new MBP.
Kb shortcuts are standard - for a Mac ;). Heck in most apps you can even use standard readline shortcuts like ctrl-e for end of line, ctrl-a for start of line , ctrl-n and -p for next and previous etc. Same as in emacs or in a terminal window.
This is actually on third party app devs, not apple. Note that double-clicking the titlebar works the same in stock apps, as well as in most mac-only native apps.
Cross-platform apps like Slack often hide the native titlebar and draw their own which doesn’t implement all the native behaviors or even try to mimic them. Papercuts like this are part of why Mac users are more likely to be discontent with cross-platform apps.
For many Electron apps a decent work around is to install them as PWAs, which can be done with both Safari (File > Add to Dock…) or your preferred Chrome-cousin. Those draw proper titlebars.
I am baffled by whoever thought having icons leap in the toolbar as a default behaviour was an OK thing to do. Drives me crazy when I use a Mac other than mine. I have lots of little issues with the UX. Play button opening Apple Music -- ahh! Running unsigned apps is easy but I always get caught out by the right click thing.
> you can install a dozen little extra utilities to customize your way out of most of these things
Usually paid for too. Using mouse on Mac feels absolutely awful to me without Smooze.
I wish there was a better laptop on the market, but despite the compromises my MBP is the best laptop I've ever owned it's not even close. Just like my iPhone, I think it's a brilliant device despite Apple being, well, Apple.
Doesn't help for those who need a mouse device (cad/design/photo-editing, etc), but for what I use it for (software dev/ops work), it's great. Trackpads in a windows ecosystem feel absolutely horrendous to me, so I just use mice there lol.
Thumbs up for Smooze if you're looking to try and have a somewhat usable mouse experience. It's 20 bucks because of course it is, why wouldn't a tool to allow a need that basic cost money? It does have a trial. Maybe another commenter can recommend something free but when I was looking a couple years ago it was the only thing that did it right.
Using a regular mouse does feel like trying to push a string through sand.
i use linux and everyone is expected to be a freeloader and yet people constantly keep on churning our good/bad software for free because its the whole idea of "you scratch my back, i will scratch yours" and "i am doing this for fun. how about you have a problem so you fix this yourself and help everyone" type camaraderie which is opposite in osx where the idea is "you are rich enough, why wont you pay"
I think you may grow to like them, especially if you routinely type in languages other than your layout.
For example, I use a physical QWERTY layout, but often type in French (the latter is an abomination for programming and similar). I can very easily use dead keys to create the accents. I type as quickly in French on a Mac QWERTY as I used to on a regular AZERTY (it still requires dead keys for some characters).
If you use terminals, now your copy/paste shortcuts stay the same across apps. Trying to copy something without paying attention won't quit your running program / return you to the end of the history.
At first, I also found it a bit weird, but it has grown on me so much that now that I don't use a mac anymore, I try to bring it with me. One of the reasons why I hate using Windows at work, is that I can't get it to have a fully mac-like keyboard. I'm pretty close, but it insists on having the right alt as AltGr, which is a PITA, especially since it can't be moved. On Linux, the Mac layout works perfectly, at least on X11.
I like the macOS keyboard handling so much I even swap Control and Meta on Windows machines. Not the same, but a bit less annoying.
There is no OS where this approach solves UI hate, installing those extra utilities is the only way out
> how often the system is reimaged or whatever
there is another utility that restores your apps/configs, but of course, a no-utility policy breaks that
Disabling SIP is needed for a myriad of things that aren't really that advanced, like for example, it is needed for some reason by some of the macOS "tiling WM" toys, and it's needed to even use any kexts. No joke: Discord will direct you to disable SIP if you want to .. capture audio during screenshares. It's also needed for macFUSE.
macOS also has no equivalent to WSL2. "But it's POSIX!" I can hear you say. Very fair point, but there are a lot of uses for lightweight Linux VMs, like, well, testing Linux things. Docker Desktop tries but it's slow. I really wanted to like Podman Desktop but it's similarly slow, and I had trouble with networking in a difficult-to-debug way. I strongly recommend Orb Stack here: it basically brings the WSL2 experience to macOS, except maybe even a bit better, vastly prefer it to Docker Desktop. That said, it's a monthly cost, which is definitely not ideal. There's also Colima but I have to say I don't love it either; no IPv6 support isn't a killer but it was annoying to find out the hard way.
I could probably make do with macOS if forced, but I wouldn't enjoy it. That said, I can't really take having to deal with the rest of the Apple ecosystem, so I am stuck very deep into Linux. To be fair, this is nothing new for me: Linux has been my primary desktop OS since high school. But I wouldn't say it's a good desktop OS. I mostly use it because I don't really feel like I have any other options and I already paid the cost to get deep into it anyway.
(I don't hate everything about Apple obviously, but to be honest, my desire to use Apple Silicon devices was mostly tied to high hopes for Asahi Linux)
This is a strange thing to complain about, you have to do it literally once and it takes less than 5 seconds and 5 clicks. And I would rather have a nice settings panel showing what apps have access to what, rather than the mess that is Windows privacy settings.
> I'll try to set a keyboard shortcut (not a global one mind you)
(I will admit that the phrase "keyboard shortcut" instead of something like "key binding" likely lead to this confusion, but by the time this occurred to me, the edit window was already closed.)
This hit me just recently when trying to map Command+P to Control+P. I don't know if Command+P is somehow special, but if you want to try it for yourself, feel free.
Secondly, though, accessibility permission is a really large hammer. Typically that's a high level of privileges as it usually means being able to read and interact with just about everything on-screen. Granted, this is the reality of many desktop OSes today anyways, but that's the other thing. If I have to switch all of these permissions on for many apps anyways, is this really a good design? No, of course not.
I tried to keep my rant relatively contained, because the truth is I hate macOS a lot worse. A software I used to like a lot, SnagIt, has become progressively less usable as macOS has updated over time, presumably because apps that handle screenshots and video capture have had to get increasingly tricky to function. Just about every time SnagIt starts, it gives me a laundry list of permissions I need to grant it. I mean literally it has to be like 7 things. Most of them seem to stick, but apparently after the software updates some of them need to be done again.
This security model sucks in other ways too. Like for example, you have to give your terminal emulator full disk access. If you don't, really stupid things will happen. I accidentally ran brew update in a VS Code terminal. It worked! And promptly wiped out all of the granted permissions on all of the casks it updated, because VS Code (of course) doesn't have full disk access, and as part of the security model you can't just update an app without full disk access. I really wish that wasn't the default behavior, because it was genuinely just a mistake to use the VS Code terminal for that. But even worse, I really want to grant this permission to Brew and not literally everything I run in that terminal emulator, so this is pretty damn unideal.
I haven't even gotten into Gatekeeper, OCSP stapling, and all of the trouble I have gone through trying to sign apps for macOS and have it not need to phone home to check the signature. (I was also hit by that funny bug where programs were taking forever to execute because the exec syscall was hanging waiting for Apple's servers. Reminds me that I am on a "privacy friendly" OS.)
But seriously, I'm really only scratching the surface here. Don't get me wrong, I hate other OSes too. I have an ongoing rant right next to this one about how much I hate Windows 11, and I don't think I really need to express how bad desktop Linux is from a usability standpoint.
This is untrue, there's a difference between disabling SIP and changing your security policy to "reduced."
Disabling SIP lets you modify files on the system volume along with a few other things, like a way to run executables that require private entitlements that aren't signed by Apple. The reduced security policy lets you run older Mac OS versions (there's no online signature check during installs) as well as kernel extensions from authorized developers.
Discord relies on the latter, as it uses the ACE extension for audio capture, the same one that powers Rogue Amoeba's excellent apps. There are APIs to do this natively now, introduced in Ventura I believe, but Discord hasn't yet switched over to them.
As of a few days ago, they have: https://twitter.com/advaithj1/status/1723926917286371818
I admit I glossed over the details of SIP partly because I forgot, but the point is that to get audio capture working on Discord ~~right now~~ (Apparently according to neighboring comment this is fixed, but the point does still stand anyways since this literally was the situation for users since Apple Silicon arrived afaik), you have to go into recovery and run some esoteric commands to lower the security level of the machine, and it's 100% Apple's fault because they didn't offer APIs for things that people were using kexts for before shutting off third-party kexts.
(And this whole thing feels a bit rushed, as can be seen by the issues that have occurred with the newer usermode network filtering APIs... It's always especially bad when you fuck up in a way that messes with privacy software for only your own services, even if it's truly accidental.)
Maybe this could be more clear in iTerm's UI, but the reason it needs accessibility access is in scenarios where it's stomping on Mac OS' system shortcut keys. I would expect Windows or Linux would need special privileges to do the same.
That alone makes me forget all of the Windows’s quirks and appreciate all the basic things my Windows machine offers.
It’s been like that for the Mac’s entire existence. For someone who’s used Macs all their life, the Windows way is weird.
This behavior can easily be overridden by application developers but they choose not to go against expected behavior.
Power users press Command + Q to quit an application.
I've literally never struggled with what you're describing.
You might close all windows, but still have a background task running. That's nicely represented by the app remaining on, which can ask about interrupting the background task if you try to close it. It removes the need for most systray usage.
Windows, especially after Windows 10, has been actively hostile and repeatedly ignores the clear will of its users.
At boot time, it regularly takes the computer hostage in an attempt to coerce me to mass-enable its many spywares. After disabling then one by one, I can login to my desktop only to find that it has changed my default browser again. So I have to change that back, which is kind of futile because various parts of the OS now ignores the default browser settings anyway. After that, I have to dismiss the relentless ads and remove the crapware that keeps getting installed at every turn and corner.
This is a very, very far cry from "everything is easy to accomplish, my personal use software just works and I don't have to struggle with extra clicks and movements for everything." Both things can't be true at the same time. I have to click, click, click, go through all sorts of hoops, and finally give up and throw my computer out the window in frustration to try to achieve what I want in Windows. And what for? Out of pure corporate greed.
I feel same way about Mac users. Can't understand how people accept that turd of OS that comes with poor defaults (Window Management/Finder/keyboard), weaker customization and tonnes of bloat (Music/Notes/Messages/Mail/...) and then they pay a premium for it.
Also the fact that you chose window management as a major problem on Macs tells me that you have a strong dislike for things that's unfamiliar to you. There are some annoyances with Macs, especially if you're a dev, but window management isn't one of them. Macs have the best touchpad gestures and virtual desktop management UX. GNOME comes close these days, but Macs still feel a bit smoother.
As for your problem with "bloat," most of those are just stock utility apps. Any major desktop OS have had those since ages. You do have a point with Apple Music, but Notes, Messages, and Mail? Are you serious?
Whenever there is a major update, they put a big button for me to enable Bing and a smaller button for me to not do that, and I just need to click on the smaller button. They sometimes enable brand new features I don't want by default, but they do that to make features discoverable; in years of Windows use, all I needed to do is disable the things I didn't want.
I'm not a Windows fanboy. It's just an operating system, not a way of life. While it does have some things I don't like, I'm quite productive using it and I'm a satisfied user.
If it wasn't trivial to disable/reject these things, Bing would have a 50%+ desktop market share and that's not what we see. People aren't going in mass from Windows to Linux/Mac, what is happening instead is that desktop OSs are becoming less and less useful as people who used to be desktop users do everything they need on mobile platforms.
> Whenever there is a major update, they put a big button for me to enable Bing and a smaller button for me to not do that, and I just need to click on the smaller button.
This is not true. They're making it progressively harder to opt out of unwanted features. It's even impossible in some cases. Anyways, I clearly remember Windows booting into an unskippable full screen nag. The option to mass-accept various violations of my privacy was shown as a big blue button. The other option was concealed in a wall of text as a link, barely recognizable. After clicking on the link, I was greeted with a bunch of options that I had to toggle off, one by one. This isn't normal or acceptable. It's evil and manipulative, and the fact that they chose to do this at boot, when people need their computers the most, is beyond infuriating.
Here's just a little taste of the Windows experience:
# Privacy Violations
Windows 11 Update 23H2 is stealing users' IMAP credentials - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38212453
I noticed some disturbing privacy defaults in Windows 10 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9976298
Even when told not to, Windows 10 doesn't stop talking to Microsoft - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10053352
# User Interference and Coercion
Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option when installing Windows - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21103683
Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Windows 10 Insider build - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17967243
Outlook now ignores Windows' Default Browser and opens links in Edge by default - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36492329
Microsoft blocks EdgeDeflector to force Windows 11 users into Edge - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29251210
Microsoft has not stopped forcing Edge on Windows 11 users - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37461449
Windows 11 Officially Shuts Down Firefox’s Default Browser Workaround - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29579994
Last Windows 11 update changed all default browser settings to Edge - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30055222
Microsoft tests Windows account menu error badge when Microsoft Account not used - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35443361
Removing “Annoying” Windows 10 Features Is a DMCA Violation, Microsoft Says - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23486887
# Ads
Windows Now Showing Full-Screen Ads - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11167964
Why can an ad break the Windows 11 desktop and taskbar? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28404332
Windows 10 nagging users with Bing advertisements - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27337382
Microsoft begins showing an anti-Firefox ad in the Windows 10 start menu - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22288599
Windows 10 Tip: Turn Off File Explorer Advertising - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13835733
# Unwanted Features
Windows needs to stop showing tabloid news - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35323121
When it’s good it’s really, really good. That old laptop had a better LCD panel than you could get in any Macbook of that era, and that tower ran circles around any real contemporary Mac.
The problem is that no matter how hard you try, there’s always little glitches that are downright impossible to eliminate unless you have the chops to tinker with DSDTs and kernel extension development.
I wish macos moved to the same model and it could be just an app on a linux or windows machine. Apple is already shifting their weight to service revenue for growth, this could be a realistic direction to take.
Also the in application file picker makes it difficult to go up and down directories.
Macs have had a feature like that since the 90s called spring loaded folders. Pick up the file you want to move, then hold it over the base level destination folder for a moment until it “blinks” and it’ll open the folder in a new window. Rinse and repeat as you’re drilling down to the folder you want, then drop.
Back/forward buttons in Finder windows can also be hovered over with a dragged file to trigger those.
You can use Command up or down keys.
Accidentally press the play button? Apple Music. Charge your iphone through your computer? Apple Music.
I find it pretty annoying, but it is also easy to eliminate the default behavior
I discovered the fingers on my right hand barely brush the bottomed edge of it when I make certain multi-key keystrokes. Right where the play “button” was by default. Took me forever to figure out why Music was opening “randomly”.
I ended up setting the touchbar to static, not per-program customizable, and replacing most of it with a “spacer” element. Fixed the problem.
Luckily they’ve realized they were a bad idea and my newer ones don’t have a touchbar.
Disclaimer: I have never used it, one of my colleagues mentioned it a while ago.
In windows you just mash the key until the thing you want comes up.