Windows 10 nagging users with Bing advertisements (push alerts)
windowslatest.com
windowslatest.com
In addition to the Windows 10 alert, Microsoft Edge has also gained a new full-screen prompt that advises users to restore the ‘recommended’ browser and set Bing as the default search engine.
...complete with Corporate Memphis[1]. That screenshot sums up just about everything I hate about "modern" software: the infantilising "we know what's best for you" language, the intrusive nature of it, and the bland so-inoffensive-it's-offensive art. The message it gives is "you are not a user, you are the product, now be a good obedient little sheeple and do as you're told." No wonder the Win10 upgrade was "free", and they tried to force it really, really hard.
My personal fuckings go out to everyone working there who didn't stand their ground and say NO when asked to implement this shit.
I'm saying this as someone who actually uses Bing, because I get sick of Google's search results censoring and CAPTCHA-hellban too. But I wasn't forced (or "recommended") to do so, and I'd rather use IE11 than Edge just due to the UI alone.
To me the problem isn't in what the ad looks like, but that the ad is there. I also don't like that the ad is shown to a particular group of people, i.e. ones who aren't doing what lies in the company's best interests.
But at the end of the day, I don't think it's Corporate Memphis' fault - it just happens to be the design aesthetic which is often paired with this kind of shitty behavior which nobody likes. If somebody is constantly feeding you bitter medicine on a silver spoon every day, you might grow to hate the spoon.
And for this I blame Google who was big enough to afford nagging everyone to use Chrome whenever they set foot on Google turf. Youtube, Maps, Gmail, Search? "Hey, try Chrome instead of whatever you're using now". They even went a step further and shot their competition in the foot on those Google owned domains in order to make the value proposition of Chrome feel better.
So I'm not surprised at all that other companies now feel comfortable with pulling the same stunts. Especially since there's no regulatory agency that didn't have it's backbone softened to mush by lobbying and bribery.
A real nice red flag.
On the Apple side, I find the “free” (continues as paid) Apple TV+ nagware on settings menu is much more offensive than the nagware on Apple Music.
The OS showing ads is worse than apps showing ads.
Also, some of my apps have some play store popups asking me if I want to update the app every time there's a new version, even though I explicitly turned off auto updates and update notifications, again, with no way to turn off their friendly reminders.
I hate modern «you better do what we think you should be doing» software.
I'm happy that I have LTSC version of Windows that just works and doesn't have those popups (but Windows Defender still has some annoying notifications that can't be disabled AFAIK).
Recently, Whatsapp forced me to update it because it refused to work if I don't. Meanwhile, there are open source IM clients that were made 10+ years ago and still work without any updates just fine. I wish all software was like that.
Can it be disabled / remembered?
Because I'm pretty sure every browser will prompt to set itself as default browser.
Also, I've found more and more frequently I get the "there aren't any great results" response from them lately, complete with condescending "maybe search for 'cake recipes' instead" explanation box. Honestly, I'd think if you can find things that they know have few/no results, they should be trying to gain direct feedback-- why are you searching for this, and what could help improve results?
It feels like the dominant market players want to create an illusion of endless depth, and any time where you can actually reach the bottom of the barrel is an embarrassment. So you've got Google chastising you for stumping them, and Amazon giving you 98 unrelated garbage results when there are really only two widgets you actually care about in stock.
Has't worked reliably for me and a number of others for close to a decade I think (the first blog post I know of that mention it is from 2011 or 2013 I think.)
Oh, and I think it is the same thing as others mention in this discussion: infantilization and "we know better than you".
But being Google it might also be just general lack of care.
No, Microsoft, how about "no"? Or "fuck off"?
I've seen this rehashed through the years. Having worked at 4 different tech companies now, I think I can reconstruct why this happens.
UX: "Okay team, here's the opt-in dialog box."
PM: "Wait, the buttons say 'Yes' and 'No.' We don't want people to click 'No' because my perf and promo is tied to the number of people who click 'Yes.' Look, what if they want to change their minds later? Or what if they want to just think about it and then make a decision to enable my team's feature tomorrow? Are we just going to let those numbers slip by?"
UX: "Uh, well, I suppose we could add a third button, 'Maybe later.'"
PM: "THREE buttons?? Are you kidding me? That's too many. Have you even read the book Essentialism, bro? What if they accidentally click 'No' when they really want to just decide later? Or what if we change the feature enough that we can justify prompting them again with the updated version of the feature? If they clicked 'No' then they might feel that we're harassing them or something with another prompt later on."
UX: "Well, maybe we should err on the side of respecting the user's wishes. Sure, we might give up some of the engagement numbers..."
PM: "NNNGNNGGGHHPHHHTHTTTTHHHHHHHH WHAAAAAT!?!? MY BONUUUUUUS"
UX: "Okay okay okay, how about if we just make the 'No' and 'Maybe later?'"
PM: "Hmmm, that's sort of suggestive too. It might make someone who's thinking 'No' to start thinking 'Maybe later' because that's what they read. I like it. And can we make the 'Yes' sound a little less noncommittal while we're at it? Make it a little easier to click on? Maybe something chirpy and agreeable, like 'Sure!' People love being agreeable, don't they? Don't you?"
Opening Edge on startup, asking in Windows update-screens, putting Edge on the desktop and taskbar, asking to change to Edge when clicking on links, dissuading users when searching for browsers on bing, advertising Edge in the start-menu, it goes on...
Chromium Edge is bringing up the worst in Microsoft again...
Apple killed personal computing and Google/Facebook are killing the open web.
I guess you must be young enough to not remember when Google didn’t exist. The anti-trust trial against Microsoft being referred to above began several months before Google was founded. The FTC inquiries into whether MS was abusing a monopoly position with IE began before Sergey Brin even started at Stanford.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor...
Why do you say that? MSFT has been engaging in the same behavior for 30 years, trying to force people to use their browser by bundling the browser and default browsing behaviors into the OS. Why does this feel any different than what was happening in 1995? It seems exactly the same to me. Google brought new competition into the middle of an ongoing browser war, and they also do pushy things to nudge people toward their browser. But I don’t see the line you’re trying to draw.
Former Google engineer reveals the secret YouTube plot to kill Internet Explorer 6
https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/4/18529381/google-youtube-in...
As was mentioned the other day: take the time to report Chrome to relevant authorities were you live.
> MS is looking at other tech companies that do this without any backlash and keeps wondering why they are singled out ... Why shouldn't they try if evey other company gets away woth it?
Since when is MS late to the party on this one? They lost a huge anti-trust action for privileging their own browser decades ago. If anything MS invented this.
on a side note, it does not make sense to anthropomorphize a corporation, and a corporation does not deserve consideration on fairness grounds.
I am not arguing fairness. I am arguing that process and laws should apply and be applied the same way for all participants. I do not think that is such a radical idea. Frankly, we would all benefit, if justice was truly blind ( long term ).
I don't get the point of comparing Windows 10 to websites. How about you compare it to Windows 7? Somehow, Windows 7 managed to work just fine without nagging you with ads all the time.
My Windows 10 Settings app has a "Rewards" icon. After opening 100 tabs with the Firefox container you get an achievement. On Xbox they have a rewards system for just using your console, like start a few different games.
In the future, the OS will have personalized ads everywhere, "hey buy your favorite cookie now!" inside Outlook, combined with achievements for using it correctly, "Two more emails for Master of Email!"
And of course social interaction, "Ann just saved the file annual report. Do you want to like and share?"
You also have to buy usage time with gold coins or wait 24 hours.
Complete BS imo, and I work at MS.
Fry : So, you're telling me they broadcast commercials into people's dreams?... But how is that possible?
Professor Farnsworth : It's very simple. The ad gets into your brain just like this liquid gets into this egg. Although in reality it's not liquid, but gamma radiation.
Fry : That's awful. It's like brainwashing.
Leela : Didn't you have ads in the 20th century?
Fry : Well, sure, but not in our dreams. Only on TV and radio, and in magazines, and movies, and at ball games, and on buses, and milk cartons, and T-shirts, and bananas, and written on the sky... But not in dreams.
Shut the fuck up and open it in my default browser, thank you.
This will continue as long as it's in their interest to be in control of as much of the software stack as possible.
Another side of their underhanded marketing is where decision makers looking at collaboration or business apps are faced with the question of, "why bother evaluating something else (i.e. better) when we get this included in our Microsoft E5 license?"
I'm sure the product designer's thought was, "Maybe they just forgot how excellent Bing is, and they will decide to click this Bing button, rather than using the non-Bing search engine they explicitly configured before!" And not "Let's trap some accidental clicks."
Below "search the web", there is always a "search in sidebar" option. "Sidebar" basically splits your window and loads your search in the new pane. I assume this is some custom webview, but it looks very, very similar to a new window/tab.
The kicker: only Bing search can be loaded in the sidebar. So when you change your default search engine away from Bing, the text changes to "search Bing in sidebar" -- because they didn't implement the sidebar for anyone else, but wanted to keep the option there.
Yikes.
Microsoft can be aware of and support the case from both sides, but I could imagine Google detecting "User-agent = Edge and the window width=300px", and sending some experience-ruining CSS or JavaScript to try to nudge users back to Chrome.
I know there was a while where various Google properties were unreasonably clunky on Firefox, and I can't imagine it was by accident; doubtless a trillion-dollar company can wire up a few CI instances to make sure things load well on non-Chrome browsers.
But to introduce a sidebar in a chrome-based browser just to ship Bing? and then add it to every right click context for only Bing, overriding your other search preferences? and the sidebar just redirects you to open the search in a new tab/window anyway (was at the bottom of the screen for me)?
I didn't love it.
Also, I find it disrespectful to its customers. Windows is not free. If you buy a computer that already comes with it, you're paying for it. If you buy a license, you paid for it. It is not fair that its users are constantly nagged and mistreated in this way. And by the way, Apple started doing the same with Big Sur: when I open Firefox on macOS, a popup asks me to switch to Safari. This happens once in a while and there's no clear way to dismiss forever this notification. A user pays a lot for Apple hardware: can't they use it without being bothered? And of course Google does the same on their websites (even if luckily uBlock Origin allows me to avoid that).
If only Linux could support all the tools I need for my work, I'd switch to it in a heartbeat and be done with this intrusive and disrespectful nagging.
A computer should be an appliance which executes instructions on command, and that's it. Everything else is electricity theft as far as I'm concerned.
Microsoft... what happened?
Intense jealousy of Apple
Finally I got it working, and it was a half finished mess. The home screen is full of micro-transactions (and this is a game which is supposed to be for children) and I had to go to a separate guide, not provided by Microsoft, to figure out how to get the special RT maps so I could actually see this feature working. And even then you could not just load up a new game and see raytracing, I had to do some manual work in the file-system to create a texture pack which could be used with an arbitrary map.
The whole thing just reeked of a room full of product managers trying to optimize a KPI around account creation without having taken a moment to go through the process and see what they had created.
I think programmers could take some inspiration from the Engineer's Ring creed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineer%27s_Ring
https://blog.cleancoder.com/uncle-bob/2015/11/18/TheProgramm...
Sadly there is apparently no limit to what people will be conditioned to put up with.
Would be nice if you could mention how your typical reader could feasibly (and legally) do this.
If you want to be 100% legit.
“ 4x Microsoft Identity Manager - 1 User CAL - Open Business (NK7-00031)”
... means to get a valid single-user LTSC license you need four Identity Manager licenses? That’s odd
https://softwaremedia.com/shop/microsoft-windows-10-enterpri...
Many people will find themselves happily hoisting a jolly roger with a KMS emulator (several on github) given that they very likely already paid for a retail license of Windows and LTSC is basically just Windows 10 minus all the horrible annoying shit.
"With the LTSC servicing model, customers can delay receiving feature updates and instead only receive monthly quality updates on devices. Features from Windows 10 that could be updated with new functionality, including Cortana, Edge, and all in-box Universal Windows apps, are also not included. Feature updates are offered in new LTSC releases every 2–3 years instead of every 6 months, and organizations can choose to install them as in-place upgrades or even skip releases over a 10-year life cycle. Microsoft is committed to providing bug fixes and security patches for each LTSC release during this 10 year period."
From sibling comment's link, it is actually "LTSC": Long-Term Support Channel.
I don't really feel one way or another regarding their Github purchase. If not Microsoft, then someone else. Right now Microsoft seems like a less bad owner, but time will tell.
For instance, VSCodium is not available as a native download for M1 processors because GitHub Actions don’t support M1 yet.
Would Microsoft potentially delay supporting CI/CD for M1 because it’s not in their strategic best interest to support Mac as a development platform? It’s not out of the question to imagine this kind of thing could enter their prioritization process
It’s almost dystopian how tracked and marketed I feel. I think I finally have all the switches flipped that I need to stop things popping up in my face, but goodness.
They’re the same as they ever were.
Yes, definitely they are. But with strings attached, in the form of WSL.
I'm patiently waiting for the day when they will announce that some big software/service from them (Office? GUI? Outlook?) will be finally integrated into Linux, but sadly it has to be WSL to work properly/faster/better/with support, that is, Windows, and not the real thing. The next big Linux distribution, the one that every business will take as the standard to make their products (and drivers!) compatible will carry the Microsoft brand. Microsoft attempted to kill Linux in the past, and failed spectacularly, so they're now aiming at controlling it by becoming a Linux vendor, possibly the biggest one.
One doesn't become Platinum Member at the Linux Foundation just for the lulz, especially when it costs about $500000 per year. https://blog.desdelinux.net/en/microsoft-joins-the-linux-fou...
As a result, I'm happy to trust e.g. the VS Code team, while I would not extend that trust anywhere near the Windows team.
Also VSCode is already set up to enable this type of garbage. The "recommended extensions" popup is a great vector for getting programmers to use the tools MS decides are best for them, and the features for working on remote codebases are great for blurring the lines between a codebase that you actually control, and toolchains which depend on an Azure server somewhere in the middle.
I think there’s always a risk that a product like this can be set up in such a way that OSS is used mainly as an advertising feature, and essential features can be gradually moved from the open source section to proprietary code.
All I’m saying is that open source is not a panacea, and there are plenty of ways for large well resourced entities to abuse it
This can also be used to display the internet advertisements, the "important" notices and other hints with which Windows wants to promote its not-so-good products.
A few occasional mild annoyances from the marketing team is worth tolerating for a reasonably secure operating system. I'd argue people who feel otherwise need to reprioritize their risks.
I ask as even at home, my different devices all use the same browser/extensions, VPN and browsing habits. I use established FOSS where possible and the only problems I have had since Windows 98 are from data breaches (nothing I could have prevented with different OS/software).
Or are we talking about business/corp usage?
Hardware-enforced Stack Protection: https://www.zdnet.com/article/google-chrome-this-new-feature...
Significant improvements to ASLR starting in Windows 8: https://msrc-blog.microsoft.com/2013/12/11/software-defense-...
And many more things. New Windows releases aren't just coats of paint.
Guarding one protects the other.
Need to do those in different ways at different times.
We still have to keep a couple winxp and nt boxes alive at work for diagnostic gear (none are online). Thankfully not my job as I am obviously a risk :)
Windows 10 was technically vulnerable, but since Windows 10 has drastically better security features, from a defense-in-depth standpoint, having Windows 10 more or less rendered most computers immune in practice. (Likely, the few 10 machines infected were intentionally crippled by their admins.)
Bear in mind, Windows 7 is an OS from 2009, 12 years ago. It's ancient from a computer security standpoint.
Whether you are personal or corporate, you probably should be running either Windows 10, or choose an alternate operating system entirely like OS X or Linux.
List the last known remote exploit that will work for someone behind a NAT, and that doesn't involve visting a malicious site with all the default settings of IE or downloading and running an executable (at which point nothing will save you but the most authoritarian of walled gardens.)
Don't forget, the new stuff is not free of attack surfaces either.
NAT is not a firewall (though it's usually paired with one). And the NAT is usually one hop away from the computer, so it provides no protection against an attack coming from the same network (like a worm on a coworker's laptop).
However, AFAIK Windows 7 does have a built-in firewall, which (depending on the settings) might help protect even against an attack coming from the local network.
However, bear in mind, as others said, NAT isn't a security feature, it's just an annoying roadblock that helpfully makes accessing computers somewhat more difficult. However, quite a few applications on the average PC reach out and touch other services, granting malicious actors plenty of ways into a PC.
I get the hate on walled gardens, as a big antitrust supporter, but unfortunately, Windows 10's app model (universal apps) gets a bad rap because of the Microsoft Store being generally considered attached to it: UWP apps are basically the safest way to run apps, because UWP apps cannot harm other things outside of their little sandbox. And contrary to popular belief, it's entirely possible to create, distribute, and install UWP apps without the Microsoft Store. Microsoft has definitely had some missteps in both rolling out and marketing the newer app model, but it is the future.
Sandboxed applications not only provide unparalleled security, they also are incredibly stable because other apps can't tamper with them either. By being self-contained, developers can generally be confident the app will work on any machine without issue.
Now I have to admit the GPS device itself is also pretty low-quality, so probably I should just return it to the store, but still... What were they smoking? No 3D accelerated map updates for me, I guess.
I've also had Windows stop me on boot recently to "finish setting up my PC" which was just to ask me to switch to Edge and Bing and to subscribe to Office 365...
[1]not IMAP IDLE and leaving a socket open, that's not allowed anymore. the app servers connect to the service and if there's new data it must be relayed through the OS vendor's push server which the OS leaves a connection open to and will cause a notification to appear on the "end user's" device.
I know this is what everyone says as soon as Win10 is mentioned, but if Win7 still had security updates I never would’ve “upgraded”
I regret having wasted so many years on windows. All knowledge gained on Linux compounds quite well. On windows, forget about it. All the proprietary convoluted obfuscated software is not dev friendly at all unless you embrace working for corps for the rest of your life
no autoreboot, no MS store, no onedrive, no ads
I've had a legitimate copy on my gaming pc for 18 months now without issue
aliexpress has an excellent range of grey market keys...
Yes you can. https://github.com/kkkgo/LTSC-Add-MicrosoftStore
It's technically possible to tweak pro such that it's mostly the same thing, but LTSC comes that way out of the box, fully supported by Microsoft, and that's not going to change because they don't want to lose these lucrative enterprise customers.
Pro with a decrapifier script like the one you can find on Spiceworks will work a lot better, and allow you to run UWP games too.
Apparently the minimum for getting a VL agreement is 5 licenses, and the other 4 can be padded out with cheap/filler licenses. https://community.spiceworks.com/topic/2167558-explicit-inst...
rather than downloading some third party app that attempts to break the functionality without (hopefully) breaking other features
(also hoping some new update doesn't re-enable what you thought you disabled)
It appears at the very top and AFAIK there's no way to disable it.
Not that I agree with MS on this btw.
That's misleading at best, fraud at worst.
Either keep your OS up to date, or use a different one.
Edit or keep it off the internet.
Patched stock Debian Linux is less secure than a 6mo out of date W10 machine: change my view.
"If you can't beat them, join them." The cynicism with which Microsoft embraced this path is sickening.
- Fancy looking but essentially dumbed down "fly-out" menus rather than full page versions of downloads, history, etc. Very buggy and slow too. Cannot disable.
- Pinterest integration, pricewatch integration, more along these lines to come.
- The ability to disable the various "Search Bing" options was recently removed. These buttons are now also positioned in such a way that they're easy to click accidentally.
- Each release consists of more new features, but also more bugs and more instability. Even without extensions I've been getting an insane amount of crashes lately and no way to find out what happened.
One other thing that has been bugging me since the beginning, is the fact that MS365 Business Standard accounts are the only type that cannot use the browser's synchronisation functionality. Considering even free outlook.com accounts can sync it is actually a little bit insulting.
Edge is actually really good otherwise. It has some nice tiny features that Chrome still lacks, it's faster than Chrome, its devtools are the same as Chrome's, it can use Chrome extensions if you like. Integrations with VSCode are also being worked on that I'm actually excited about.
This shit they're pulling lately is starting to become rather tiresome, though, and I'd hate to have to leave this browser behind because of that. I'd also have no idea which alternative to turn to.
Products will be shitty AF and no regards even for paid user and expert at annoying them.
i didn't want to hurt microsoft PR people, my bad!
--
I wonder why microsoft is forced to use same adware tactics to encourage people to use their products
Wouldn't products automatically get users if they are good? specially when they are made by the vendor of the system?
maybe the issue is they are just bad products?
Google Android ≠ Android (AOSP)