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Comment by Spartan-S63 | Hacker News Reader

So much this. I'd much rather pay a shipping fee from the factory to my address than a dealer handling fee.

I honestly wish I could just order a Tacoma straight from Toyota, pay for it to be shipped to me, and avoid the dealership rigamarole altogether. I'm okay waiting my turn in line from the factory. I don't want to deal with artificial dealership "market adjustments." I don't understand why we haven't deregulated the car sales industry to allow (and even require?) manufacturers to directly sell to consumers, circumventing dealerships entirely. It would upend that industry and force them to prove they actually are a value-add service.

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There was a program where you could fly to Germany and buy a BMW there, drive it for a few days and ship it home. Ended up being cheaper than buying it at a local dealership. Not sure if it is still available.

Dealerships are local jobs programs in some sense and they got State laws enacted to secure their positions. Tesla went up against them and won I guess.

My guess is the Amazon program will be similar to the Costco program.

It's definitely still available for Porsche[0]

[0]https://www.porsche.com/usa/motorsportandevents/deliveryprog...

European Delivery Program. https://www.internationalbmw.com/european-delivery-program2....

hmm, any idea if they do this with motorcycles?

Volvo does it too (for Europe-made models, not China-made models): https://www.volvocars.com/us/l/osd-tourist/

They haven't won in every state, I don't think.

Not only do dealerships provide local jobs but generally their owners tend to be well to do and donate prolifically to local elections, where dollars are normally otherwise scarce because of their lower participation rates.

> Not only do dealerships provide local jobs

Which is a terrible reason to keep predatory businesses around.

> but generally their owners tend to be well to do

You can always make a lot of money when you're ripping off the public

> and donate prolifically to local elections

"Bribes local politicians". Car dealerships seem like some kind of mob racket. They are a third party that managed to insert themselves in the middle of transactions that shouldn't involve them, they extract a ton of money from the public while providing no value, and then bribe lawmakers to make sure they can keep the rigged game going.

The sooner we can get rid of them the better.

Volvo and Porsche are the only makers left with these programs. Audi, Mercedes, and BMW have them on permanent hold last I looked (since the pandemic).

Lost them a sale from me, as that was a big point in their favor. Without it I ended up somewhere else.

Many motor vehicles are large dangerous multi-ton vehicles using a dangerously volatile fuel source. There's a reason we require extensive licensing. We need to ensure that only appropriately trained users are sold these dangerous devices. At about 43000 fatalities per year, they are one of the top causes of deaths in the US. You can't just let everyone operate machinery like that.

This is setting aside the scope for direct to consumer sales exploiting uninformed customers. Remember: safety regulations are written in blood.

Dealerships don't do anything to enforce safety with car sales. If anything they do the opposite, given the pressure to upsell people on larger, faster, and more expensive cars.

Your statement seems like a total non sequitur. How does making sure purchasers are adequately licenced have anything to do with deregulating the dealership model?

Regulations are written in blood. Remember Chesterton's fence. If you cannot articulate the reason for why dealerships exist, you are not equipped to argue for their deregulation.

The current model increases safety. People have bought dangerous devices on Amazon before. And people have used these dangerous devices irresponsibly. We shouldn't encourage their proliferation.

So if Amazon implements a driver's license verification step, would it be equally "safe" as a dealership purchase?

The subtle evaluations of a dealership salesman cannot be emulated by an automated system. Humans are superior to machines for evaluating other humans. Beware unintended consequences of deregulating. Society needs more regulation (written in blood), not less, especially in these trying times where corporations, with their outsize power, are trying to get direct access to consumers to exploit them. Systems like dealerships are load-bearing in society, designed to reduce the pressure of direct impact of large corporations against individuals.

Claiming that dealerships exist to protect the consumer is akin to claiming Payday Loan processors exist to protect customers from big banks.

> Humans are superior to machines for evaluating other humans.

You mean humans will do a racism/sexism/classism when deciding whether or not to sell to someone or rip them off.

As recent studies have shown, automatic systems only encode our biases. Amazon has an extensive behavioral advertising and targeting business. Is it safe to let then extend this to something like this?

If your concern is that sales to unlicensed individuals would occur, it’s extremely easy to implement drivers license validation. How would that possibly encode biases during time of sale? They’re not going to change the price later just because you upload your license or whatever; if they did it would be transparent.

There is no Chesterton's fence here, the history and current regulatory environment surrounding auto dealing is well known.

Dealerships exist in general because early 20th century people liked buying from specialized stores instead of department stores or mail ordering them. Dealerships exist today because of regulatory capture.

Dealerships in the US do not play any role in determining the ability of the purchaser to operate the vehicle. It is legal and possible to purchase a vehicle without a drivers license in all 50 US states.

> The current model increases safety.

How? Are Tesla's more dangerous as a result of direct sales? Do you have data to show this?

The dealership model and the States' protection of their business model has nothing to do with safety. These laws were intended to protect the business models of the franchise dealers from the rapidly-consolidating manufacturers. Dealers saw the consolidation happening, were scared that the automakers would strong-arm them, and lobbied their states to enact these protection laws.

"Written in blood". No.

I know exactly why dealerships exist, and I'd bet most here do as well. The argument is that the reasons they exist are outdated, and only continue because of lobbying.

> The current model increases safety

How, specifically? Would a Tesla be more safe if it were bought from a middleman dealership as opposed to directly from the manufacturer? Would Toyotas be less safe when purchased directly from Toyota?

Similarly, is there any evidence that a used car purchased from an independent seller is statistically less safe than one purchased from a dealership?

> If you cannot articulate the reason for why dealerships exist, you are not equipped to argue for their deregulation.

How about you focus on the argument, rather than an ad hominem? Or is that your only argument?

> We need to ensure that only appropriately trained users are sold these dangerous devices.

If someone without a license wants to buy a tacoma and look at it sitting in their driveway what's the problem exactly? It's not like they'll get a license plate without a driver's license and they won't get very far driving without plates.

Car dealerships are leeches that trive on obscure pricing schemes and partial information, the idea that we need them in the name of security is an extreme stretch.

Their line of argument is also completely negated by the secondary market where cash is king and cars change hands with few questions in the presence of cash.

Are you suggesting that direct-to-consumer sales would somehow result in unlicensed buyers from obtaining motor vehicles? Because it seems a trivial thing to verify that you have a valid drivers license before transferring ownership. It also appears that you're legally allowed to purchase a vehicle without driver's license already, so this is a moot point: https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/can-you-buy-a-car-without-a-...

As to direct sales somehow uniquely exploiting customers: Have you ever tried to actually buy a card from a dealership?

Having a license is not a prerequisite to buying a vehicle. having money or equivalent is. You just won't be able to legally drive it.

Every car dealer that I've been to has checked that I'm a licensed driver.

The same can be said for whoever will deliver a car from Amazon.

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