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So much this. I'd much rather pay a shipping fee from the factory to my address than a dealer handling fee.

I honestly wish I could just order a Tacoma straight from Toyota, pay for it to be shipped to me, and avoid the dealership rigamarole altogether. I'm okay waiting my turn in line from the factory. I don't want to deal with artificial dealership "market adjustments." I don't understand why we haven't deregulated the car sales industry to allow (and even require?) manufacturers to directly sell to consumers, circumventing dealerships entirely. It would upend that industry and force them to prove they actually are a value-add service.

There was a program where you could fly to Germany and buy a BMW there, drive it for a few days and ship it home. Ended up being cheaper than buying it at a local dealership. Not sure if it is still available.

Dealerships are local jobs programs in some sense and they got State laws enacted to secure their positions. Tesla went up against them and won I guess.

My guess is the Amazon program will be similar to the Costco program.

It's definitely still available for Porsche[0]

[0]https://www.porsche.com/usa/motorsportandevents/deliveryprog...

European Delivery Program. https://www.internationalbmw.com/european-delivery-program2....

hmm, any idea if they do this with motorcycles?

Volvo does it too (for Europe-made models, not China-made models): https://www.volvocars.com/us/l/osd-tourist/

They haven't won in every state, I don't think.

Not only do dealerships provide local jobs but generally their owners tend to be well to do and donate prolifically to local elections, where dollars are normally otherwise scarce because of their lower participation rates.

> Not only do dealerships provide local jobs

Which is a terrible reason to keep predatory businesses around.

> but generally their owners tend to be well to do

You can always make a lot of money when you're ripping off the public

> and donate prolifically to local elections

"Bribes local politicians". Car dealerships seem like some kind of mob racket. They are a third party that managed to insert themselves in the middle of transactions that shouldn't involve them, they extract a ton of money from the public while providing no value, and then bribe lawmakers to make sure they can keep the rigged game going.

The sooner we can get rid of them the better.

Volvo and Porsche are the only makers left with these programs. Audi, Mercedes, and BMW have them on permanent hold last I looked (since the pandemic).

Lost them a sale from me, as that was a big point in their favor. Without it I ended up somewhere else.

Many motor vehicles are large dangerous multi-ton vehicles using a dangerously volatile fuel source. There's a reason we require extensive licensing. We need to ensure that only appropriately trained users are sold these dangerous devices. At about 43000 fatalities per year, they are one of the top causes of deaths in the US. You can't just let everyone operate machinery like that.

This is setting aside the scope for direct to consumer sales exploiting uninformed customers. Remember: safety regulations are written in blood.

Dealerships don't do anything to enforce safety with car sales. If anything they do the opposite, given the pressure to upsell people on larger, faster, and more expensive cars.

Your statement seems like a total non sequitur. How does making sure purchasers are adequately licenced have anything to do with deregulating the dealership model?

Regulations are written in blood. Remember Chesterton's fence. If you cannot articulate the reason for why dealerships exist, you are not equipped to argue for their deregulation.

The current model increases safety. People have bought dangerous devices on Amazon before. And people have used these dangerous devices irresponsibly. We shouldn't encourage their proliferation.

So if Amazon implements a driver's license verification step, would it be equally "safe" as a dealership purchase?

The subtle evaluations of a dealership salesman cannot be emulated by an automated system. Humans are superior to machines for evaluating other humans. Beware unintended consequences of deregulating. Society needs more regulation (written in blood), not less, especially in these trying times where corporations, with their outsize power, are trying to get direct access to consumers to exploit them. Systems like dealerships are load-bearing in society, designed to reduce the pressure of direct impact of large corporations against individuals.

Claiming that dealerships exist to protect the consumer is akin to claiming Payday Loan processors exist to protect customers from big banks.

> Humans are superior to machines for evaluating other humans.

You mean humans will do a racism/sexism/classism when deciding whether or not to sell to someone or rip them off.

As recent studies have shown, automatic systems only encode our biases. Amazon has an extensive behavioral advertising and targeting business. Is it safe to let then extend this to something like this?

If your concern is that sales to unlicensed individuals would occur, it’s extremely easy to implement drivers license validation. How would that possibly encode biases during time of sale? They’re not going to change the price later just because you upload your license or whatever; if they did it would be transparent.

There is no Chesterton's fence here, the history and current regulatory environment surrounding auto dealing is well known.

Dealerships exist in general because early 20th century people liked buying from specialized stores instead of department stores or mail ordering them. Dealerships exist today because of regulatory capture.

Dealerships in the US do not play any role in determining the ability of the purchaser to operate the vehicle. It is legal and possible to purchase a vehicle without a drivers license in all 50 US states.

> The current model increases safety.

How? Are Tesla's more dangerous as a result of direct sales? Do you have data to show this?

The dealership model and the States' protection of their business model has nothing to do with safety. These laws were intended to protect the business models of the franchise dealers from the rapidly-consolidating manufacturers. Dealers saw the consolidation happening, were scared that the automakers would strong-arm them, and lobbied their states to enact these protection laws.

"Written in blood". No.

I know exactly why dealerships exist, and I'd bet most here do as well. The argument is that the reasons they exist are outdated, and only continue because of lobbying.

> The current model increases safety

How, specifically? Would a Tesla be more safe if it were bought from a middleman dealership as opposed to directly from the manufacturer? Would Toyotas be less safe when purchased directly from Toyota?

Similarly, is there any evidence that a used car purchased from an independent seller is statistically less safe than one purchased from a dealership?

> If you cannot articulate the reason for why dealerships exist, you are not equipped to argue for their deregulation.

How about you focus on the argument, rather than an ad hominem? Or is that your only argument?

> We need to ensure that only appropriately trained users are sold these dangerous devices.

If someone without a license wants to buy a tacoma and look at it sitting in their driveway what's the problem exactly? It's not like they'll get a license plate without a driver's license and they won't get very far driving without plates.

Car dealerships are leeches that trive on obscure pricing schemes and partial information, the idea that we need them in the name of security is an extreme stretch.

Their line of argument is also completely negated by the secondary market where cash is king and cars change hands with few questions in the presence of cash.

Are you suggesting that direct-to-consumer sales would somehow result in unlicensed buyers from obtaining motor vehicles? Because it seems a trivial thing to verify that you have a valid drivers license before transferring ownership. It also appears that you're legally allowed to purchase a vehicle without driver's license already, so this is a moot point: https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/can-you-buy-a-car-without-a-...

As to direct sales somehow uniquely exploiting customers: Have you ever tried to actually buy a card from a dealership?

Having a license is not a prerequisite to buying a vehicle. having money or equivalent is. You just won't be able to legally drive it.

Every car dealer that I've been to has checked that I'm a licensed driver.

The same can be said for whoever will deliver a car from Amazon.

We walked out of a dealership about 10 minutes before we planned to sign on a car because the sales manager started trying to pull all of this slimy crap on us. We had a trade in that we were clear had problems, listing the exact problems. He assured us he wanted the car, but the moment it came to value it - suddenly it had all sorts of different problems. I do a lot of work on my cars, so I knew it was all scare tactics and BS.

By contrast, my Tesla experience was the exact opposite. Schedule a test drive, walk into the store, get the car for 30 minutes, then run the numbers. When I told them I wasn't prepared to buy, I felt absolutely no pressure. In fact, the only pressure I felt the entire time was a statement that the federal tax credit is likely going to end and deliveries are mid-December. Even then, it was clear they were telling me for _my benefit_ (to not miss savings) rather than trying to get me to sign immediately.

I absolutely want that buying experience.

> No BS upsells.

Those will become "in-app" purchases before long. Tesla already has this with self-driving. Many car companies are charging to enable features with a software switch now, which are more what I mean by "in-app", i.e. they will move them from sale time to prompt you for seat warmers on a really cold day, then charge you monthly to keep it. It's the idea that I need to pay a subscription for a car feature that irks me

The BS is the stuff like windshield crack protection, undercoating, extended warranty, and tire protection. You can’t really upsell those when you leave the dealership.

Sure, you can do other kinds of upsells, but those tend to be less scummy and when you don’t have a salesman breathing down your neck pressuring you it’s going to be less effective.

>The issue isn't "online buying."

The issue (for many) is things like negotiating, financing, trade-ins, and car availability.

Aside from the availability thing (especially the past couple of years), you can largely make the rest go away by no-haggle cash on the barrel and deal with your own trade-in. But most buyers don't actually want that.

When I bought a car the summer before last, it took a while to get the car delivered (and the dealer wasn't exactly candid that "in transit" actually meant "not actually built yet"). But I was paying cash and they actually offered a ridiculously good trade-in and a few upsells were mostly about saying no a bunch of times and ultimately getting the price of "factory options" added to my trade-in. It took a couple hours and a few phone calls while waiting for the car to be delivered, but honestly not a big deal for an expensive, rare purchase.

The last three vehicles I've bought, from three different Toyota dealerships, the options, color, etc. were negotiated completely over email, no phone calls or physical dealership visit. I always pay cash and I never trade in. At the end of the process, which wasn't excruciating, I asked for and received, in each case, a price fixed to the penny. In each case I quite brutally asserted, multiple times for each purchase, that if the price was even 1 penny more than the agreed on price stated in email, I was going to walk, even though I had to drive at least 100 miles in two cases. When I sat down at the dealer, I reasserted my guarantee that if the price was even 1 penny more, I was going to walk.

We still had to sit through videos and the standard sales pitches for the undercoat, etc. Can I shout now? Lasting an hour. For the last Prius they said well this particular vehicle has an optional security registration or some such that is installed in the car. I said remove it. Maybe two minutes of harrumphing about how I am exposing myself and I got quite acidic actually. Well whatever they actually did the price I wrote a check for was exactly what we had agreed to over email.

Now I don't actually care if what you like to do in your non-work time is to sit through car dealership sales pitches for nonsensical stuff, but I don't. And I want the option not to have to burn my time for this. It really is a wonder how normalized for many people it is to feel how pleasant it can be to sit through add on advertising while doing some sort of necessary activity where at the conclusion I'm going to write a check for tens of thousands of dollars. They're so helpful! Rather than what it is, which is time theft, condescendingly done.

I'm not a fan of car dealerships but, in the category of things you pay $10s of K for in cash (other than maybe expensive travel bookings), car purchases are actually pretty low effort relative to most things so long as you don't need financing. Certainly don't deal with builders/contractors.

So it turns out in the last year I have sold a remodel problem house and bought another all the way across the country. We could drill down and ask why my sold house tilers were so awful. To the point I paid to have it all Boschhammered up and replaced with engineered wood. Delaying the move. How about not. Why would you point to the dysfunction of another unrelated industry as being worse to justify the stupidity of the original topic here?

Old house sold for cash, "new" house bought for cash.

Does anyone spending tens of thousands of dollars not value their time? I think they do!

Problematically, in some states you can deduct the price of a trade in from the taxes you pay on the new car. What this means in practice is that even if you sell private party, the net amount you get may end up being almost the same unless the dealership is truly robbing you on trade in value due to the deduction on new car tax.

> I really hope the Amazon car purchases explicitly prohibit upsells and other nonsense. Just bring me the car, give me the keys, and stay long enough to make sure that the car works. No BS upsells.

I tried going to four separate Hyundai dealers in my area about a year ago as my lease was ending. Every Elantra was marked up at least $5K and the dealers tacked on some other interior protection plan and other crap. I visited one of the dealers again recently and they are still doing the markups. Sorry, but I am not going to pay $33K for a car that should be $23K. It’s really sad I can not buy a car at MSRP…

It has pluses and minuses. Sales and service become a monopoly. It's like the Apple model. It can work well, but it's really bad is the company doesn't provide good service.

> it's really bad is the company doesn't provide good service

Then you just buy from another company and market works.

Well with cars it might be a decade before you get to exercise your market power. Also, since so much of the experience can be hyperlocal it can be hard to do the research that could steer you elsewhere.

Being pitched fabric protection or GAP insurance is no big deal. Just opt out and move along. I actually opted into fabric coverage on a lease because my kids were little and BOY was I happy I opted in after they destroyed the back seat with a ruptured bottle of hand lotion.

The process might be onerous but it's far from a "rip off" or some sort of scam. Every car I've bought dating back 20 years had very helpful sales and finance people willing to explain everything. In one case they even disclosed their profit margin in the case of the GAP insurance (6%).

It shouldn't take 4 hours to drive off the lot with the car after agreeing on a price paid in cash. My experience.

In my experience, it's PDI that takes forever, because the techs are backed up. Typically I finance, and I don't spend any longer than 30 minutes signing forms and declining protection plan BS.

Agreed. Pay cash! I bought an ATV and financed it and that was a mistake. I signed more documents than when I bought my house and I was only financing $6K! Took 1.5 hours despite arranging everything online before I arrived (or so I thought). The next year I bought one with cash, it took maybe 15 minutes.