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Comment by churchill | Hacker News Reader

I feel no conversation about the Taiwan situation can be complete without noting that they had an active nuclear program that was close to developing weapons before the Americans pressured them to shut it down [0].

Judging by how that gesture turned out for Ukraine, we can safely assume Taiwan won't fare better as well.

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_and_weapons_of_mass_des...

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I suspect most people don't want to bring it up because it doesn't really fit the modern Taiwanese independence argument. Those nukes were going to be used to nuke the PLA and invade mainland China to end the civil war, which is why the US shut it down. I think in the modern day most in the West would rather forget that it was not that long ago that the Republic of China was actively planning to invade the Chinese mainland to end the civil war, because it makes "Taiwan is an independent country that isn't Chinese and all this 'PRC invasion to end the civil war' stuff is just nonsense made up by Chinese propaganda" not seem particularly credible.

It's not very believable to be adamant about mainland China and Taiwan being the same country that you will rule after conquering the mainland when you have a significant military advantage in tech and allies, then when the mainland gains the upper hand militarily you start insisting that actually you're not both part of China, the civil war is ancient history and wasn't really a civil war anyway, and anyone who appears to be willing to breach the status quo with violence is horrible. It comes across as disingenuous, like if Taiwan was militarily significantly stronger than the PRC today then it wouldn't be "Taiwan independence" being advocated, it would be "eliminating the communists to unify China" being advocated.

>> and anyone who appears to be willing to breach the status quo with violence is horrible.

Not commenting about the rest, but anyone who is willing to breach the status quo with violence IS IN FACT HORRIBLY HORRIBLY HORRIBLE. Start digging into history and each side will have enough justifications for war ten times over.

Absolutely, I agree. It should be resolved peacefully or just not resolved (status quo). My point was not that it was wrong to oppose a violent resolution - my point was that it's obviously hypocritical to oppose your opponent employing a violent resolution when they think it might succeed when you support a violent resolution as long as you think you might succeed. It's not genuine non-violence, it's just "They shouldn't be allowed to fight us unless we will win", which is obviously fair for any prospective nationalist, but is damaging to your argument that you're just a peaceful country and you don't understand why your neighbour is so warlike.

And of course, all of this is in the context of me explaining why bringing up that Taiwan nearly had nukes until the US stopped it is not a great idea for those attempting to advocate for Taiwan's side in the dispute, because it raises the obvious question of "Why did they nearly have nukes, what were they planning to do with the nukes?"

This is the bit that I find most annoying: westerners insisting that the government and people of Taiwan want to be their own country separate from China.

Certainly the government doesn't, they still claim the entire territory the PRC controls and more.

The people generally consider themselves Chinese when asked and wishing for peaceful reunification, with a small (and possibly growing) minority disagreeing.

It is false that people generally consider themselves Chinese. Nearly 77% of people in Taiwan identify exclusively as Taiwanese: https://www.tpof.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/20210830-英文版...

It is also false that they desire peaceful reunification. The same source shows only 11% want to become part of China.

So the insistence you refer to is consistent with the will of the people of Taiwan.

No one in the Taiwanese government talks about claims to mainland PRC territory. Denouncing these previously made claims it would be a de facto (maybe even de jure?) move to independence and result in who knows what.

Taiwan is defacto it's own country separate from China. My understanding is that the main reason Taiwan doesn't declare independence is fear that that will cause China to invade, the same reason the west humors them by pretending Taiwan is not a separate country.

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