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Comment by cedws | Hacker News Reader

I realise Berghain et al are trying to protect themselves from the riff raff, but enforcing a stupid "techno uniform" and turning away half their potential customers for arbitrary reasons probably doesn't help their business. I went to Berlin earlier this year and didn't even try to get into Berghain because I don't want to waste time queuing only to be turned away.

In London we have some excellent clubs that don't care whatsoever about what you're wearing and everybody has a great time. You buy a ticket, you get in, simple as that.

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Actually, Berghain does it pretty well. Usually the bouncers walk the line and already tell people when they definitely will not get in. This avoids a lot of drama at the door, and people don't have to wait needlessly and can still comfortably go someplace else.

Berghain is one of the most famous clubs in the world. It has and cultivates an underground image, which is why people want to go there in the first place. You don't need a "uniform", on the contrary, individualism is what will get you in without problems. Just don't be an obvious tourist who just wants to tick a box for their Berlin visit.

Berghain has created the problem of being a tourist magnet for itself by being exclusive. As someone who loves techno, I'd much rather everybody gets to join in and enjoy themselves instead of just those who meet the bar. As long as you establish rules, like no photos/videos. You can't "convert" people who don't get the experience.

>You don't need a "uniform",

Everybody says you need to wear black. Even the tourists have wisened up to that.

> Everybody says you need to wear black.

That is false.

Look, if you just made it for everybody, it would no longer be a club with an underground image. Berghain is a tourist magnet because it simply is an unbelievable location straight out of a Mad Max movie, paired with a Funktion-One sound system that fits your head like a headphone, featuring the best techno DJs in the world, and you can spend your whole weekend there without ever leaving the club. They surely do not struggle financially, on the contrary, the owners are probably swimming in money and only still do it because it's fun.

Besides, let me say there's lots of other clubs in Berlin you can go to. The article is correct that there used to be much, much more, but the main issue for clubs is not attendance, but like pretty much in every big city: rising rent and neighbors who complain about noise and garbage.

>if you just made it for everybody, it would no longer be a club with an underground image.

It is clearly not underground because everybody knows about it. It only achieves the "image" through arbitrary discrimination. That is the least punk as you can get.

None of what you said makes Berghain great goes away by letting more people experience it. The sound system and DJs will still be there.

I guarantee if Berghain stopped trying to be techno Mecca, the riff raff would lose interest, and you wouldn't need the picky bouncers. There's a particular club I go to in London that this works perfectly well for.

I said "underground image". Go find an illegal rave if you want underground. Go to a punk dive bar if you want punk. Berghain simply wants to make sure that it's not overrun by tourists, because once that happens, the only thing you can do afterwards is close shop. At least it's not discrimination through money like in plenty of other clubs. You cannot buy a VIP table at Berghain. That's pretty refreshing.

It's already over run by tourists, except now only tourists who can afford to look the right way on social media are allowed in.

Is that you personal experience?

In my experience there is no "right way to look" when going to Berghain, most people online have no idea what the club actually is and just keep repeating the same old tired clichees - like the fantasy that you have to be dressed all black or something to get in.

In my experience the bouncer just sees if you will have a good time at the party or not. And that is what they select on. Once you worked some years at a club door you can see instantly who should get in and who shouldn't. Clothing is an indicator but its not the important one. Its about the look in your eyes.

>Its about the look in your eyes.

that sounds so lame tbh. i thought most people left behind this social scarcity shit after sixth form.

Welcome to the “underground” scene, where middle school level behavior is still regarded as the height of sophistication.

Almost like actual adults who still sport non-drug-addled brains should run away as quickly as possible.

It is, in a sense, the opposite end of the "autism spectrum". An innate deep understanding of social cues and general empathy.

The German "underground" scene is just completely backwards and childish. They're so forward thinking and advanced that they've wrapped right around having experienced some sort of integer overflow and started caring deeply about how other people (strangers) dress all over again. Like being back at school. The "scene" is a joke.

No one in the scene cares deeply how you dress, where did you get that from? I would advise to spend less time on social media and experience the real world before you comment on it.

It's unique to the German scene and I live in Berlin, I understand the scene thank you. Germany is unique in how predisposed with the superficial its "alternative" scene is, without any doubt. Spend less time in Germany less time on social media and more time in other countries and you may begin to notice this. If all you know is Germany then a lot of very strange behaviour will be normal to you.

Magical thinking and crackpot beliefs about being able to read into people’s souls with a single glance? Seems pretty spectrum-y to me. At best.

If you ever worked a club door you would know that you can very quickly categorize people into "fits" or "doesn't fit".

It does not have anything to do with magical thinking or beliefs, its years of experience and a deep understanding of the culture and clientele that visits your venue.

Of course you don't have to participate if you don't like it, there are plenty of clubs (in Berlin too) where you just pay entry and thats it.

"Tell me you have limited social intelligence, without telling me..."

And thats fine! I do too. But to claim it's impossible just because we are not good at it would be absurd.

I’ll happily go out on a limb and say that people who believe they have acquired inerrant powers of scrying because somebody let them work the door somewhere are arrogant at best.

It’s really a great example of the narcissistic desire for power and control that drives the behavior of a lot of people in the scene.

Yes, bouncers can go on absurd power trips for no reason and get a kick out of flexing on the peons.

And yes, it is possible to quickly assess someones P(an issue) after a career of observing tens of thousands of people and whether or not they were an issue.

These things can both be true.

[And keep in mind a false-positive matters not-one-bit-at-all, whereas a false-negative is (quite literally) an issue.]

But the bouncers at Berghain aren't just there to keep troublemakers at bay like the bouncers at your local venue or, you know, almost any other club in Berlin.

We're supposed to believe they're engaged in some sort of vibe curation process to attain the perfect crowd for the night. There's this weird purity aspect to it that is more than a little problematic.

Given the endless endorsements in this very thread that club has the exact “vibe” they want, it seems the bouncers are doing a damn good job at their job.

It is the fool that tells the industry-proven expert that they know better.

Lots of people have been primed with the notion that Berghain is some sort of peak experience, so if they make it past the door when they visit Berlin, they're probably going to view the experience with rose-colored glasses.

It's amazing brand strategy but that doesn't mean it actually is the best thing going, of course.

I trust the Berliners I know (and those who have posted here with similar opinions) who don't view it quite so favorably. From them I hear it's a very good club but usually not worth the hassle of the lines and the arbitrary door policy.

This rings true with my own experience as someone who has been to Berghain multiple times over the years - I've never had a bad time, but it's gone downhill, and other Berlin clubs offer equivalent or better experiences without the annoying exclusivity.

The fetish scene has remarkably high numbers of people with autism and other behavioural disorders. I think it's because the scene is so open and accepting above all. You can be yourself.

Wouldn’t one expect non-normative sexual desires to go with non-normative mental conditions? But that doesn’t have much to do with the bouncers.

I don't know, not really.

From what I see a lot of people have these desires but rarely act on them. People often tell me in confidence when I mention what I do.

I think it's a lot more normative than people think.

>least punk

Punk isn't punk anymore. When Google & other major corporations espouse the same core tenets of inclusivity, you're not rejecting or rebelling against anything. Perhaps Berghain and other exclusive clubs do not care about a 'punk' identity.

Just wearing black is not gonna get you into Berghain. The main criterion is unashamed indivual expression. If you are trying to get in by wearing a uniform you're not gonna have a good time (either in the queue or the club). I've only ever been in outfits that were colourful, and weird, and me.

Beyond the outfit you are also most likely to get in if you are clearly bringing your personal uniqueness and energy to the place rather than expecting an experience, and if you show respect for the culture, everyone else present, and that you are able to handle something out of the ordinary.

Are you gonna have a good time in there and not ruin anyone else's time? You'll get in.

I've been to Berghain quite a few times, each time I wore the same thing. black dress shoes no socks, black knee length "cut jean" shorts, and a white dress shirt 3 buttons undone. Never had any issues, I got the impression your vibe matters a lot more than how you're dressed? I love Berghain, it's great spot, crazy how kind and fun everyone is when you're in there.

Agree completely about the vibe. Outfit is really just a way to read vibe, but not at all the only one. That outfit sounds like you weren't trying to be anything someone else expects, which is precisely the kind of thing that demonstrates you would be a good fit.

The culture in Berghain (and many Berlin clubs) is amazing - and part of the reason is the selectivity!

Aren’t dress shoes without socks very sweaty and painful to wear?

Pro tip: don’t wear tennis shoes.

Shoes? When I rave I dance barefoot, like it should be. Ofcourse, I wouldn't go to a rave between walls even if someone paid me to. Open air or bust

> It has and cultivates an underground image,

There is absolutely nothing underground about Berghain and that fake ass techno revival, not since the last 15 years.

>Usually the bouncers walk the line and already tell people when they definitely will not get in.

Not true. I have never seen or heard anything like this to happen at the Berghain queue.

> You don't need a "uniform", on the contrary, individualism is what will get you in without problems.

This in incredibly ironic. What if I like wearimg denim jeans, a smart shirt and brown shoes? That'll be considered not individualist enough and I won't get in?

> but enforcing a stupid "techno uniform" and turning away half their potential customers for arbitrary reasons probably doesn't help their business.

That's literally all they're known for. It's their whole business model. "Don't come because you probably won't get in" -> everyone tries to get in

You do not need to wear a uniform to get into Berghain. The bouncers, above all, are looking for interesting people who they believe will add something to the mix rather than just go there to consume and gawk. There really is not much to conform to, other than some contextual awareness of the fact that you're going to a techno venue and there is a certain culture behind that, e.g. flashy logos or ostentatious clothing is generally frowned upon, and you should be dressed comfortably enough to actually rave. Most importantly, I think, you need to give off a vibe of freedom and non judgement, the things going on in Berghain are not for everyone. Elon didn't get in, and frankly it would probably be a buzzkill if he did.

Elon didn’t get in because letting a celebrity billionaire in would be death for any Berlin club.

It would make the scene’s champagne Marxism just a little too obvious for comfort.

It has nothing to do with his vibe. A non-celebrity ultra high net worth individual would get the red carpet treatment. Berghain guestlist isn’t at all hard to get.

I heard the exact opposite about London clubs - my friend told me they find all kinds of stupid reasons not to let you in.

The only time I've ever gotten thrown out of a club I was thrown out of a London club "for being drunk" despite not having had a drink yet (and nothing else either), and just standing calmly by the bar. I think they'd just decided there was too much of a gender imbalance already and decided to throw out a number of guys, as I wasn't the only one. I take some pleasure from the fact that club went out of business a couple of years later. Central London clubs can be really brutal and arbitrary if you're a guy in particular (but certainly not only).

Outside of Central London things quickly get more reasonable.

> I realise Berghain et al are trying to protect themselves from the riff raff, but enforcing a stupid "techno uniform" and turning away half their potential customers for arbitrary reasons probably doesn't help their business.

Berghain is very elitist in this regard. There exist lots of other clubs in Berlin.

I've always heard this, but I got in first try and I was the least techno looking of the queue. And it was pretty crowded. In contrast to some other Berlin clubs that had an hours long line while having barely any people inside. Maybe I got lucky.

I went knowing full well I wasn’t cool enough to get in. Atleast I can say I tried.

Berghain is a sex club though, no? It's not just a place to dance and drink. I'd never go there myself, but I kind of get the point of being selective.

AFAIK it has an area for that, but it is primarily a music venue.

Uh, no. The focus is the music and dancing. It’s as much a “sex club” as any other dance club. Source: I’ve been to Berghain.

Laboratory is definitely a sex club, but it has a separate entrance. Source: I've been there on NYE when they open the door between the two.

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