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Comment by danielfoster | Hacker News Reader

I’m not sure what sort of decline the article is referring to. There’s not a single reference to revenues or guest count for any club in Berlin, nor mention of any specific club in danger of closing due to lack of patronage.

These clubs were great while the city was struggling, but now that it’s not, I can see why people don’t wish to tolerate the negative externalities associated with them. Hopefully most clubs can find a way to integrate into today’s Berlin. Some may not be able to and disappear. Cities aren’t static beings.

I’ve also realized I prefer underground parties or small social gatherings to 3-hour lines, 40 euro entrance fees, and uncertain door policies.

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Yea, 3 hour lines, and then they obnoxiously don’t let you in anyway, for no obvious reason. Not shedding any tears here.

This might be true for very few very selective clubs like Berghain, certainly not true for all Berlin clubs. In the case of Berghain, it obviously doesn't suffer from losing customers—your comment confirms this point.

>This might be true for very few very selective clubs like Berghain, certainly not true for all Berlin clubs.

Perhaps, but it seems that those "selective" clubs have given a bad reputation to all clubs.

Berlin clubs are a scene, it's highly recommended to do prep work before going out. Personally, I would love for these clubs to be more accessible, but understand that Berghain has a very specific reputation that it works hard to maintain. It's an exclusive techno club considered by many to be the best in the world.

Prep work.. like the years of study practice pays off .

What kind of prep is required to go out to drink and fund someone else's business?

I will never be going as I am too old and too busy for the "scene" so please explain it to me in laymen terminology.

You need to know how to look and set the right expectations if you want to experience the most highly regarded techno club in the world. If you show up there with a group of drunk mates wearing sweatshirts or office attire - don't expect to be admitted. It's not that hard really, exclusive places have special rules.

> If you show up there with a group of drunk mates wearing sweatshirts or office attire - don't expect to be admitted.

Why not? I was at a heavy metal concert in Shibuya last May, and the place was full of 50-something guys in full office suits. It was a Monday, so I guess they just finished work and went directly to the concert. It was quite amusing to be honest...

You're comparing apples and oranges. A metal concert isn't an exclusive club; anyone can buy a ticket and go. And yes, most salarymen in Tokyo wear office suits every day, so since it was on a Monday, they just didn't bother bringing a change of clothes. I see men in such suits all the time on weekdays doing whatever, because those are their work clothes.

It's unfortunate that the rock and metal crowd is mostly middle-aged people these days; the young people seem to be listening to rather bland pop music, idol music, etc.

Dress code is an admirable expectation. I didn't even consider this to be prep work. Seems sensible. Thank you for taking the time to reply.

> It's an exclusive techno club considered by many to be the best in the world.

Being exclusive is really against the ethos of techno in Berlin. The "exclusivity" at the door is usually about achieving a fun mix of people and keeping out the ones who cannot behave.

As an occasional clubber in Berlin, these "best" things are ridiculous. The "best" kebab place with the long queue is nothing special at all, and Berghain is, apart from the building and the (mostly gay) sex stuff (which don't do much for me) a club like many others. It's never been my favorite - the vibe can be surprisingly aggressive and the music is often not that good for my taste. I used to go there for specific acts or along with friends only. Haven't bothered for years now. Nowadays it's also become expensive, cashing in on its dubious status.

There is a thing that the "best" kebab place and the "best" club have in common: kebab places and clubs are both very good in Berlin, so if you go to the one that the tourist guide / TikTok recommended, you're probably going to have a good time - but maybe you don't know that there are many other just as good or better places.

I don't mean "exclusive" as in a "VIP club" a-la some Miami venues. Exclusive meaning really hard to get into.

Yeah, I understood after reading your other comments.

I've noticed this too about things deemed "the best." They often are susceptible to diminishing returns. For example, I go to a lot of Michelin-starred restaurants, but many of them are really not much better than I could make at home. Sure, they may have more exclusive ingredients, but the raw flavor potential is not significantly increased in Michelin-starred restaurants versus those outside of that group.

If you're not that impressed by Michelin-starred restaurants, why do you go?

As for how restaurants compare to making food at home, I don't think almost any restaurant can do better than a good chef at home. Someone at home can concentrate on making a top-quality meal for one or two people (maybe a couple more at the most), and doesn't have any real time pressures, or needing to share kitchen resources with meals made for dozens of other customers. It's pretty much the ideal environment for cooking, assuming 1) the equipment available is good and 2) the chef is skilled enough. Of course, #2 is a big one, so while some people who are confident in their cooking skills can claim "I can cook better meals than most Michelin-starred restaurants!", lots of other people can't cook meals that require more skill than "put in microwave for 4 minutes" so most restaurants can easily beat that.

I go because there is always something new to discover, in the way they cook, plate, and serve their foods, which I then use in my own cooking. Plus, I am hoping that one of them at least will impress me someday. As for home cooking, I agree with you, but oftentimes even other restaurants can beat Michelin-starred restaurants on flavor, so it's not just skilled home cooks. I view Michelin-starred restaurants as one would view high fashion and their shows, pieces of sensory art rather than pedestrian fare.

Anecdotal, but I have a 100% hit ratio at Berghain and have never done any kind of prep work. Most of the times bh was not even part of the plan and we would just show up there, sometimes still with the backpack from work, laptops and all. Maybe two or three of us, sometimes on my own. I think it sucks that so many people are rejected at the door, but the approach clearly works once you get inside and feel the vibe.

I was rejected at Kater Blau once though, for who knows what reason. It's the way it works, if you get bumped you can get angry at the system or just forget your ego and go elsewhere and enjoy the night.

Bad to you perhaps, great for the people who take pride in being at "the most exclusive" places. Which is a not-insignificant amount of people.

That's genuinely nothing to do with why the Berlin clubs with strict entry policies are great. The experience inside doesn't feel exclusive, it's beautiful - people being free and really immersed in the music, supporting and taking care of one another, creating myriad moments of connection and joy, and a very much lower rate of people being obnoxious or in conflict than in a regular club. It's totally unlike being in a club that doesn't have the same kind of entry standards, and each club has a unique culture that is upheld in part by their door staff.

Exactly, I feel like people who complain about this have never experienced anything close to what you describe. Strict door policy benefits the club goers. If you want to go pick up girls with some sweaty dudes looking for a fight - that's fine, there are many clubs like that in any European country, including Germany.

That's 100% the thing. KitKat for example has recently been taking hits to its reputation because there have been instances of groping in there and they've been ignored by the club stuff. Now that they let Till Lindemann in a few weeks ago even though there have been active accusations of sexual harassment against him, they are completely done for with anyone who cares. In contrast, places like Berghain are blind to fame - there have been stories of celebrities like Björk being turned away at the entrance.

Been away from Berlin for 7 months or so and I'm really saddened and surprised to hear that about KitKat. It's a complex line to navigate in there always but that's part of the beauty of it - I've had plenty of uncomfortable or challenging experiences in there but always felt fundamentally safe, and know many of my friends, especially women, find it a safe (but sometimes challenging) space. It really does depend on the whole culture participating in holding the line, and it sounds like it's faltering recently.

My experience of KitKat is that unwanted attention of any kind (which depending on the night might not be super rare) is quickly shut down by the people in the immediate area before the staff even get close, and then the staff respond very quickly to it, especially if someone who is a regular calls attention.

I've only heard great things about KitKat even from people who live in Berlin. It's a bit of a Mekka according to the people in the scene here.

The scene is prone to issues and what we do in my town is not allowing new people unless they have a fet account and/or accompanied by a regular. There's also a blacklist of known offenders. Not sure if that's the case over there.

I really hope I can visit it one day but I'm really afraid of travelling all the way there and being refused..

Ps regarding Lindemann I'm not a big fan of cancelling people before the facts come out. I absolutely abhor abuse but I'm also very much in favour of innocent until proven guilty.

It wouldn't really be a risk of him misbehaving because there's so many eyes on him. But I know it's a tough line to draw. Glad I'm not a club manager.

Sisyphos is selective in this way but also plays the most normie pop and house music you're liable to find in Berlin outside of maybe the couple Schlager clubs that manage to survive outside of Bayern.

The article is literally about Berghain.

I don't fully follow the anecdata in this article. They mention that Berghain had to raise its cover charge to "deal with rising costs" (understandable, considering the inflation), not that they have fewer patrons.

And even if, if one club closes down it hardly means the end of the club scene as a whole. I qm not familiar with Berlin that much, but back the day the club in Munich was P1. Now not anymore, doesn't mean others didn't take P1s place so.

Right. It's a form of segregation. A place whose roots are in Bohemian, black, gay and trans clubs with specific focus on welcoming outcasts should be explicitly inclusive.

Traveling to Asia, South America and Europe to meet with electronic artists I've never had any interest in attempting to go to the segregated clubs of Berlin. I find it offensive.

There's plenty of ones that don't discriminate.

Here just to share that I think "segregated" night clubs are essential for creating a publicly accessible and safe + positive vibe club experience.

Your other options are (a) let anyone in and you get a**** and total dilution of cultural values (quick death of the institution) or (b) it's a private party and you're not invited.

For accessible and good, you can stay on your toes and find new, smaller clubs and scenes that haven't had time to die yet, but that's its own exclusiveness: if you don't know, you don't know.

Counterpoint: Hacker News, CDMX EBM scene, goth scene, LA underground art scene, SF renegade rave scene, Latin bars, gay clubs like the EndUp, which have been open and welcoming since 1971, gay black scene, free software movement, gay Asian scene in any city, bear bars, salsa clubs, martial arts clubs, drag bars, anime scene, furry scene, hiking groups, Trekkies, adventurer clubs, punk scene, bicycle riders groups, astronomy groups, ball room dancing groups, central american danza cultural groups, alcoholics anonymous... Even prestigious universities have countless open proseminars where you can just walk in off the street to a graduate symposium. I've gone to many, you really just walk in the door.

I'd argue the majority of cliques and scenes are extremely accepting and people self filter. Having a discriminating door guy is just being an asshole.

You can go out to hundreds of bars in Berlin without any door policy whatsoever. Legendary bars, cool bars, gay bars, etc. It's not like the whole of Berlin is segregated.

But this approach just wouldn't benefit some popular dance clubs. Without a solid door policy clubs would be stuffed with people who come there for wrong reasons. To pick up girls, to get drunk, to visit an attraction for the sake of a visit (not because they enjoy techno music), to get into a fight, etc etc. Have you ever been to a poorly managed club? They don't have a community, don't focus on a holistic clubbing experience, have many people with really bad vibes. Would you want to stay there for a night and the next day (night time + day time raves)?

> underground cliques

Let's be honest, techno is not underground in Berlin, these clubs are a massive tourist attraction. Berghain is not a 50 person dive bar in SOMA.

So your argument is that it's a popular tourist attraction so instead of capitalizing on it by say opening a second, moving to a bigger space, having more events, selling tickets in advance or charging higher prices they instead openly and famously discriminate based on physical appearance?

In Germany. Let me guess, they look at your ID to check your name and nationality first. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but I bet I'm not.

Btw, KitKatClub doesn't do that and they're equally famous.

I am reminded that we are on a tech forum :) Do they need to capitalize, scale, open franchise clubs all over the world? Techno clubs are not about that at their best.

Door policy is discrimination only in the sense that the very few people at the door have to make a swift judgment on whether your group will fit in. Can this be upsetting? Sure!

> In Germany. Let me guess, they look at your ID to check your name and nationality first.

By this logic liquor stores in the US also discriminate based on person's nationality since they check the ID.

KitKatClub has a strict dress code policy for their sex-oriented events.

Kitkatklub dress code is wacky. They're insanely serious about it but it's easy to conform to. It's a costume party.

As to the other point, you can separate the process to avoid the kind of blanket discrimination I think we can all agree is unethical. I bet they don't make the slightest effort. It's probably one guy that checks your ID and says yes/no and one guy that takes money. It could be 3 instead of 2 to avoid, just to be crazy, saying no to all the Jewish names, but it's not.

Next time I'm in Berlin, I'll try to remember to take a clicker with me and stand outside the place. I bet you'll start to notice a few interesting patterns that America has quite a few laws against. I've only heard them to be extremely proud of their bias so I'd be surprised if you didn't start seeing just classic discrimination because that's what humans appear to naturally do unless they work really really hard at it or have some structures to prevent it.

You could approach visiting Berghain the same way you do with KitKatClub. I don't recommend it, but you could. Treat it as a costume party - match the expectations, dress up appropriately, come with a friendly group.

If the community and friendly feel is the selling point, then no you can not really scale that way and simultaneously keep the community and relationships. You have to choose between the two.

As if Berghain is still a community venue, as opposed to a bunch of ur-capitalist hustlers selling the idea of community to lost and naive souls.

Community and scale do not mix. If the founders truly cared about community they would have wound the place up in about 2010 and done something new.

But once people experience a bit of success greed inevitably takes over…

I see your point, but a community venue and constantly wounding up and starting anew also don't mix. It's an unfortunate outcome of the scale and the system we live in. If Berghain was a XII century monastery in an inaccessible place it could have maintained a community venue for centuries. A large club in the techno capital of the world has to resort to a different approach if it wants to maintain at least some level of continuity, status, and quality for its community.

But it excludes arbitrary people from the community for arbitrary and superficial reasons.

Why is this so hard to understand?

This is an exaggeration. All communities have something that make them a community, and not just an everchanging group of random people. Is being into techno a random or superficial reason for being a part of the techno community? Is looking and being friendly a superficial reason for being a part of an intentionally accepting community? This is the same argument people use in many other contexts where inclusion is conflated with having no rules and preferences. Should gay sex parties admit large groups of drunk aggressive lads just because gay parties are supposed to be inclusive? This approach ends up compromising the community itself, it really doesn't benefit the cause.

Ultimately, I agree, and have spent a lot more time in many of these scenes than at Berghain.

However, all of them are fairly self-selecting in different ways that I think are difficult or impossible to achieve in a long-running, ostensibly "for everyone" institution like a techno club.

I understand you feel that way but materially it's incorrect.

You can be exclusive for exclusive-sake and you'll attract the dolce & gabana crowd and maybe that's what they want - people who will spend $500 on alcohol.

But as far as techno I've met all the Belleville 3, two of them twice and each time it's been at tiny spots with like $0-$5 cover.

I've even been to warehouse parties with producers big enough to have Wikipedia pages that are just honor systems where you promise to venmo the promoter and there is no door guy. Highschool kids could just walk in doing hard drugs and to be honest they probably did.

But then again, there's certainly pop techno and non-pop techno. Tiestos YouTube has like 3.7 billion views. That's a different problem than say Legowelt with 200k.

> Hacker News

Pay attention to the downvotes, and browse HN with "showdead" turned on, and you'll see that HN stays the way it is in large part due to aggressive exclusion of those who can't stick to society norms up to an including the metaphorical "door guy" (bans).

Self-filtering is a start. But pretty much all cliques and scenes also have lines you will get ostracised if you go past. The extent of their reaction if you will vary, and sure, there's a difference between proactively judging you based on appearance and retroactively judging you by actions, but in some scenes your appearance is part of the game. That sucks if you don't fit in, but it also sucks for those who want something specific if you're that one person who can't self filter and insist on ruing the experience for everyone else.

Exclusion based on contribution is different than exclusion based on discrimination.

It's a very important difference.

If I, just some random dude, submitted a correct mathematical paper solving a millennium or Hilbert puzzle to a prestigious journal, for instance, they would publish it regardless of the fact that I'm not so and so from Princeton. They wouldn't exclude my valued contribution.

Discrimination would be me submitting the correct solution but first having to find and tack on so and so from Princeton as the author in order to even get considered.

Now I'd probably have to wrangle them a bit to convince them, but that's just credulity, not discrimination.

That's quite different than say Hattie McDaniel, a black actress, being excluded from the premiere of her movie, Gone with the Wind and unable to accept her Oscar on stage because of discrimination.

Discrimination exists regardless of contribution for reasons ultimately unrelated to the nature of the contribution

None of the people you're arguing with here have been defending exclusion based on discrimination of the kind you're objecting to, so it's then unclear why you're making this argument.

The specific comment you replied to that I replied to did not argue for the kind of discrimination you're talking about here either.

I'm absolutely sure that the kind of discrimination you're talking about is also an issue with quite a few clubs, but they are two very different issues.

Sure but consequences come from systems, structures, and institutions and not from intentions.

You can tell me it's some vibe check but it's structurally set up to discriminate based on classic markers and there's been intentionally zero remediations to avoid it.

In fact, many reports of xenophobia, antisemitism and racism persist, just Google it, it's everywhere.

That's why we had to fundamentally re-form our institutions in the US in the name of inclusion and not just have better intentions.

Berghain and Tresor can to whatever the fuck they want, I don't care. But let's call a spade a spade and not pretend it magically turns to something else based on wishes and dreams.

Then attack the lack of remediation, and the lack of more objective criteria, not the notion that there are criteria for participation in all kinds of communities including in most of the ones you used as examples of inclusive ones.

> That's why we had to fundamentally re-form our institutions in the US in the name of inclusion and not just have better intentions.

Are you suggesting that worked?

> But let's call a spade a spade and not pretend it magically turns to something else based on wishes and dreams.

The problem is that you appear to call a spade something else entirely, and attack a position nobody has taken. I note that you have expanded on specific issues and pointed out another club that has specific policies that can be easily conformed to elsewhere, and that was a much more productive line of argument to take.

Some of the dead can be interesting as long as the discussion does not touch topics that send them off. Makes you wonder if you could create a discussion direction tag based partial shadowban.

"I'd argue the majority of cliques and scenes are extremely accepting and people self filter. Having a discriminating door guy is just being an asshole."

Yes and it is a pretty good description of most Berliners. As a capital, that has mainly lived the last 30 years by sucking tremendous money out of the other federal states, as a city that has little industry and businesses left, as a place which administration has become dysfunctional, it gives the stupid arrogant little Berliner a feeling or superiority if he gets into a club but others must stay outside.

And before you donwvote me, for many years I loved this city. I caught a last glimpse of the post reunification Berlin, when basically all the good clubs had no license or whatever. Bars and clubs at the craziest places. Took the police years to close this down. And today, if you walk through Prenzlauer Berg or Oranienburger str. OMG.

Honestly when it comes to Berghain, the paternoster next door at Neues Deutschland Druckerei und Verlag is way more interesting and fun.

> (a) let anyone in and you get a** and total dilution of cultural values (quick death of the institution)

The counterargument to your point is somewhat self-evident: all the great nightclubs in Berlin that have way more relaxed entrances than Berghain that aren't filled with assholes and aren't completely diluted of cultural values.

Often times it's the exclusivity that attracts the assholes who normally don't listen to that kind of music anyway.

I'm not going to go that far. I'm sure there's decent people there.

I've got no interest in discriminating against the discriminators

Berlin has got to be the most unfriendly city in Europe to rave in as a foreigner by far. I was into that scene back then and would much rather party in London or Amsterdam.

The most likely reason is that you give off tourist vibes. My Berliner friend told me as such when I came to visit, we hit up some thrift shops so I could get some local threads and 'blend in'

In fact, when I got in one club a very cute german girl tried to talk to me on the dancefloor. But I didn't speak any German and she got angry, shouting "aaauuggh!! tourists!!!"

Also, for the clubs that forbid alcohol (hard drugs only!), they will refuse you if you are caught drinking in line or are visibly drunk.

Also, I was told to keep my mouth shut as they will sometimes refuse you if you speak English

At least this is how it was about 13 years ago. My friend was a self-described and un-ironic "hipster", who kept his finger on the pulse of the local underground, and of course he lived in Kreuzberg

Well, you can also be a "tourist" as a German visiting Berlin. And be treated as such.

I think speaking English in itself was never a problem to get in. But of course the tourist vibes get stronger if the person doesn't know the "definition of cool" that is expected and appreciated in that particular club.

Take this example [1] of a tourist they probably let in by accident and regretted it. :)

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy9GregPIA4

This checks out for 13 years ago. Not sure it's the same today.

There are clubs that forbid alcohol? That’s wild.

There are a lot of clubs that forbid alcohol in the US and Canada too.

Some of them are open for example only between 2am and 8am with a nice variety of other drugs available.

Clubs don't forbid alcohol. That was misleading hyperbole. Being visibly drunk at the door might reduce chances to get in, but clubs make a lot of money with drinks and the majority of people will buy drinks, even in clubs where illicit drugs are consumed.

Yeah, there are, or at least were, a few.

The thing about Berlin clubs is they care very strongly about the vibe and being cool, and/or protecting those deep in psychedlics or other stuff. Aggressive, drunk assholes ruin that so they are verboten in some spots. The bars are all happily stocked with non-alcoholic selections. It's not America where you need to make money at all costs fuck the consequences.

Note that these are the same places that will reputedly dump you out the back door if you overdo it or OD, take from that what you will.

Also, I think you underestimate just how much the party scene loves Club Mate over there. That is what we drank instead. It pairs really nicely with molly!

As a regular Berlin visitor I have never heard of a club that "forbids alcohol" let alone encourage illicit drug usage. It's actually quite the opposite – the clubs tend to actively discourage drug use (meaning searching for them at the door and kicking out everyone who is caught using).

Did you have a local taking you to undergrounds? Because these kinds of places don't really advertise at hostels.

The only difference with today would be that not speaking German no longer means that you are visiting. Boroughs such as Friedrichshain or Neukölln are full of expats, including young Americans who did not yet realize that they don't live in America anymore. Many people do indeed come for a few years to party their 20s away and move on with their lives into a different place, so they have no incentive in learning the local language.

I moved to Berlin to escape the political headaches in Poland while still being close to my family and friends, with no specific goal of partying here, as I've never liked clubs and dancing in general. But from hanging out with expats and sometimes joining them to themed parties in clubs, my takeout is that you have to spend a lot of money on clothing and appearance to show the bouncers that you really belong. Of course places like Berghain are completely random in that matter and the way you dress doesn't change anything (unless you really look like a tourist, I guess), but for most part it's a rich kids club.

Funny, for me it was like 30 euros at a thrift store and we were golden. I walked out with some really dope army-green tight Levi's, I still have those and I wish they still fit.

no obvious reason?

don't be drunk or on the way to getting drunk.

#1 pay attention. be there & listen.

#2 don't be too cool for this. in that moment, he's head of security and you might be a reason to call the police or someone who'll cost the crowd too much attention for no return.

that's it.

The article definitely felt light on facts. For example, by how much did they increase the cover charge to deal with falling numbers?

Also, didn't it occur to anyone that charging regulars more to offset loss of business from casuals would drive the regulars away as well?

It went from 15 to 25€, roughly

That's helpful! Have to say, 25 EUR feels quite cheap considering it's storied reputation.

Like Berghain has trouble filling the place. They keep the line artificially long to preserve a veneer of exclusivity. You don’t have to be a Berliner to know that trick, most clubs pull the same thing whenever possible.

Fortunately a 40 euro entrance fee is something you don't see yet in Berlin

Only 25....

You do, pretty often.

There's an article like this every year. Last year the fear was that Berghain was up for sale.

Hard numbers are always going to lag behind opinion.

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