[flagged]
I suggest taking a look at some of the stories on how the Hamas murdered people and is using its own people as human shields to learn about "terrifying". There should be limits at some point.
And I also suggest meditating on the fact that Israel's war on Gaza is the first war in modern history where women and children comprise the vast majority of the victims.
According to CBC radio, more children have been killed in Gaza in the past 3 weeks than in all conflicts since 2019. ( Link: https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7012927 )
Perhaps it's time to start viewing both Hamas and the Government of Israel as Terrorist Organizations, since both of them now wholeheartedly engage in intentionally attacking civilian populations.
Israel specifically pointed at the area where they will be bombing to clear civilians. They used cell phone tracking to make sure that their message was getting through and only then conducted bombing. This seriously hindered the impact of the bombing since it lets the terrorists escape.
Notice that these "facts" about civilians dying are given by the Hamas who block escape roads for their own people and disallow them from going into their tunnels for safety. The Hamas wants civilian casualties to raise the next generation of terrorists and to reduce the legitimacy of Israel.
> And I also suggest meditating on the fact that Israel's war on Gaza is the first war in modern history where women and children comprise the vast majority of the victims.
According to the Hamas which has lied repeatedly about everything and specifically prevented people from leaving.
> Kind of makes you wonder who the 'terrorists' are.
No it doesn't. The difference is stark.
The Hamas his holding children hostage. It opened this attack by burning civilians alive and shooting children. It was during a time when Israel was reducing pressure on Gaza so 100% unprovoked and against civilians. They knew retaliation would happen and are keeping hostages so the retaliation will happen.
They block their own people from the tunnels so they will die in the crossfire.
Israel might make mistakes that harm civilians (a lot fewer than reported) but the hamas left Israel no choice. Imagine your children held in a terrorist tunnel, Israel is REMARKABLY easy on them all things considered.
Look, I used to be as Pro-Israeli as they come. I fully endorse the right of any nation to defend itself when attacked by terrorists ( and yes Hamas is a terrorist group on par with Al-Qaeda).
But it's one thing to act against terrorists, and it's another thing entirely to indiscriminately kill children for crying out loud. Children!
I supported Israel, but I have a conscience, as do the vast majority of human beings. At this point, there's no difference between Hamas and the Govt of Israel.
In the refugee camp that was bombed, children were trying to drag the corpses of other children they had been playing with together in a playground. That's heartbreaking, it's horrifying.
And to respond to your 'fake statistics' claim, the UN and Aid Agencies have repeatedly certified that the death numbers released are accurate, with some insisting they're actually undercounts, which means even more innocent people have been killed by the Israeli Government's indiscriminate bombing than has been reported.
I usually just lurk on HN without commenting. But it's just that it was difficult to read someone actually defending & rationalising the intentional murder of children. I mean I had to say something.
Even if it's only online, one does have to speak up.
Keeping quiet and going about one's life, while atrocities are being committed (even if they're being committed by the Govt of a country one previously had some admiration for), makes one a silent accomplice to those commiting the said atrocities.
This is not actually how the Geneva Conventions work. In particular, the Geneva Conventions do not allow a belligerent to intentionally use human shields in order to turn a legitimate military target into an illegal target. Furthermore, the so called rule of "proportionality" does not actually use the term "proportionate". Instead, the criteria is whether the "expected" civilian casualties are "excessive" "in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated". There's a good thread here breaking this down: https://twitter.com/Aizenberg55/status/1719729794043052234
The proportionality rule ultimately requires a judgement call, like the thread you provided states. I understand that your call might be different than mine, but to me the evidence is clear: Israel is not paying appropriate heed to Article 57 §1: "In the conduct of military operations, constant care shall be taken to spare the civilian population, civilians and civilian objects."
You seem to think the massive toll on civilians and civilian objects (houses) is merely because Hamas is using them as shields, to me this tactic of Hamas' is now mainly an excuse used by IDF to terrorize to the point of obliteration a perceived hateful albeit civilian population, a strategy that has strong support in Israel after Hamas heinous attacks on October 7.
We can debate the finer points of this ad nauseam, but that would be missing the greater picture, which is that the Israeli army is now doing exactly what Hamas expected them to do. What we need now is to tell the Israelis to stop and reconsider, not provide them with further excuses for genocidal policies. The current trajectory is not in Israel's long term interests, nor those of the region or indeed the world.
Hamas routinely places military targets such as rocket launch sites, headquarters, and weapons productions centers directly alongside and underneath civilian population centers. They do this to manipulate gullible people like you and they are succeeding. Israel is right not to care about such foolish opinions when Hamas has vowed to repeat the massacres of October 7 repeatedly as long as they exist. They are not the ones pursuing a genocidal policy.
> foolish opinions
I understand. Instead of civil discourse you prefer to have ad hominem laden discussions about your insults and strawmen? A tactic commonly used in lieu of sound arguments as you may be aware. But granted, this issue is "too close to home" for some people, a level-headed discussion can be too much to ask for.
I guess we're done here. Have a nice day.
During the 2002 Battle of Jenin, Palestinians claimed hundreds to thousands of civilian casualties, including claims of mass graves. Afterwards, the total number of Palestinian casualties turned out to be 52 to 53, most of whom were militants. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jenin_(2002)
As for Jabalia, many of the civilian casualties are attributed to “sinkholes” (i.e. the Hamas tunnel network). There were also warnings of “the possibility of secondary explosions due to the presence of munitions in the area” (https://x.com/gaza_report/status/1719363355360518250), along with reports of “the loss of Jabaliya brigade commander Ibrahim Biari and several other fighters when their underground operations center collapsed after being hit by an Israeli air strike.”
Israel issued a warning weeks ago that the safest part of Gaza would the southern half of the strip, south of the Wadi Gaza. Why wouldn’t Hamas place refugees there instead of on top of their underground command centers where they were storing munitions?
> Kind of makes you wonder who the 'terrorists' are.
On October 7th, Hamas fighters entered Israel to rape and murder over 1,400 people in their homes, in the streets, and at a music festival. Over 200 were taken hostage. Do you believe this was a legitimate act of resistance?
The white house did eventually confirm the casualties (1), not to mention in previous wars there were no major discrepancies and were credible and believed by the white house and media too, in fact, UN believes that the numbers are actually higher but still under the rubble
> Some U.N. officials, however, say the real number of casualties is likely significantly higher because the health ministry’s tally doesn’t include people still under the rubble. (2)
(1) https://twitter.com/OopsGuess/status/1719517883976614095
The White House confirmed that civilian casualties are taking place, but civilian casualties take place in every armed conflict.
> not to mention in previous wars there were no major discrepancies
False; did you read the part of my comment addressing Jenin? Even in this conflict, the blast at the hospital, Hamas claimed 500 deaths when they blamed it on Israel. It turned out that not only did Israel not bomb the hospital (rather, it was hit by a rocket fired by Palestinian Islamic Jihad), but the total number of deaths was, depending on which source you believe, anywhere between 1/10 and 1/2 as many as Hamas had originally claimed.
They did confirm the numbers, they are independently audited by the UN team too, always been the case, even Senators now are confirming the numbers (1), additionally, if US “really” wanted to confirm the numbers, they can send a team there to confirm these numbers by themselves, but we all know it’s just a dirty politics to hijack the credibility of Palestinians officials’ statements to allow further crimes goes undetected.
> False; did you read the part of my comment addressing Jenin?
I did, and has nothing to do with this current issue so it’s irrelevant, since they fall in different administrations (one in Gaza other in West bank)
> It turned out that not only did Israel not bomb the hospital (rather, it was hit by a rocket fired by Palestinian Islamic Jihad)
That’s also another lie, it wasn’t a misfire as noted by many analysts who also analyzed the sound of that hit, this video probably provides the best timeline (2)
(1) https://twitter.com/mtracey/status/1719858059193794599
(2) https://twitter.com/ChiefTrumpster/status/171679329621789515...
Then you're at fault. Not whoever dropped the bomb.
In case there's any doubt what I mean: Hamas is moving Palestinian civilians (in addition to killing them outright) at gunpoint into areas Israel has announced they'll bomb. That's as bad as throwing them off buildings, shooting them, and other methods they use, and as it makes it impossible for Israel to avoid civilians, it does remove the blame from Israel.
And please post evidence of your claim they are moving civilians in intentionally. Turns out those buildings being blown up are also people’s houses and they don’t want to leave.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield#Israeli%E2%80%93P...
Also, as for your story, I don’t believe them. More likely that soldier killed civilians knowingly and then made up the story after.
There is a lot of it, but of course you can say it's all fabricated, e.g. these examples: https://web.archive.org/web/20111018011032/http://www.mfa.go...
However, the gist of "lack of evidence" is found in this quote:
> The United Nations Fact-Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict ("UNFFMG") that took place in 2008–2009 accepted the possibility that Hamas launched mortar attacks from the vicinity of a school and from residential homes, sometimes by the threat of force against residents. The report was unable to find specific evidence that civilians whose homes were used for rocket launches were "forced to remain in their houses" but the report repeatedly noted that Gaza residents were "reluctant" to discuss the conduct of Palestinian armed forces due to fear of reprisals.
So yes, if you are going to look for Palestinians who will testify in court that the were forced to remain in a given place or enable to escape for some time, you will never find such a person.
Funny you mention that report though, it also states that Israel intentionally targeted civilians.
Goldstone also said the evidence presented did not meet "the criminal standard of proof beyond a reasonable doubt".
You can ignore all of those things. You can ignore the fact that they placed their headquarters under a hospital or that they fire rockets next to another hospital (and hit it by mistake then blamed Israel).
Just as long as it fits the narrative of Israel is lying and the Hamas is, truthful???
What level of evidence do you need? There's motive, there's justification, there's first person testimony... What do you think, that the people who send suicide bombers into busses with children are too nice???
Confirmation bias is a problematic thing. For instance, I don't want to believe that the Hamas is truthful about the number of deaths in Gaza. But I don't KNOW that they are lying. I have no source of that other than their history. It's also very clear that they don't divide combatants from civilians which is the number I want to know. But the difference is my belief doesn't factor into this. I just don't know. That isn't evidence either.
In this case the evidence is pretty damn clear.
You repeat Israeli and us propaganda about Hamas intentions. Should I quote Likud members saying Palestinians need to be wiped from the earth? Sounds like concrete evidence they are killing civilians on purpose.
You repeat the lie that the rocket hit the hospital (no evidence of this and the evidence points to an Israeli bomb or shell) You also repeat the lie that there is a base under the hospital.
You are starting from the assumption Israel is good and Hamas is bad, then working backwards to justify that. You blindly believe US and Israeli governments, when they have lied and continue to lie to the public.
What motive and justification are you even talking about? Why would they even keep using human shields if they know Israel is just going to kill them anyway? You think Hamas wants their own people to die for funsies? Or maybe it’s that Israel is a genocidal state that needs to justify globally why it’s massacring civilians?
Also amusing you post that you can’t know about the civilian deaths. The UN and other human rights groups have confirmed the numbers and said they are probably a low estimate. How is that not evidence for you?
Divide civilians from combatants? How many of the 1400 Israelis killed on the 7th were IDF btw?
But yeah, you’re right about confirmation bias being a thing.
Mosab Hassan Yousef is very much not an Israeli. He has family still in Gaza which might not talk to him but he still loves them (my spouse knows him personally).
Here's a PDF from Nato: https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields....
> You repeat Israeli and us propaganda about Hamas intentions.
Their intentions are clear from their documents. They are clear from their actions. I saw the busses they blew up, I spoke to people who were hiding in a safe room while half their peaceful village was wiped out. These are people who would fly kites with Gazan's to promote peaceful co-existence. Not settlers.
Israel has free media. A lot of the bad stuff you hear about Israels action comes from Israeli media and Israelis. There is propaganda, but with free press it's very hard to keep it going.
> Should I quote Likud members saying Palestinians need to be wiped from the earth? Sounds like concrete evidence they are killing civilians on purpose.
Let's start by saying that the current government is awful and terrible. Not as bad as the Hamas but definitely should be in jail. They got elected due to a broken electoral system and Benjamin Netanyahu's manipulation of the political system to get away from his criminal trials.
> Should I quote Likud members saying Palestinians need to be wiped from the earth? Sounds like concrete evidence they are killing civilians on purpose.
I didn't hear Likud members specifically say "Palestinians need to be wiped from the earth" but I did hear coalition members say that and they are indeed abhorrent and despicable. Fortunately, the army is an independent branch. It obeys the law and international law. Soldiers know they are liable, although indeed there are some terrible cases where they stray, but there are good cases where they are caught.
I'm not saying Israel is the "good guy" here. It's a bad situation. But the Hamas is by far more terrible to all sides. It is currently a choice, either the Hamas or Israel. By the Hamas's own words, they will do this again: https://www.ynetnews.com/article/r1y31101m6
Israel literally has no choice here. I hope this war will also result in the collapse of the Likud government and maybe a second chance for peace without the interference of Netanyahu or the Hamas.
> You are starting from the assumption Israel is good and Hamas is bad, then working backwards to justify that. You blindly believe US and Israeli governments, when they have lied and continue to lie to the public.
Fair. I do start from that point. I don't think I blindly believe them though. The evidence of the Hamas murdering civilians is pretty evidence by the three busses blown up on the street where I used to live in the 90s... Or the bartender I knew who was burned to an inch of death in a cafe explosion. These aren't good people.
OTOH I spent a lot of time with Palestinians who are great people. Moderate, peaceful people. I know them and I know they are not the Hamas. They are its victims.
> Why would they even keep using human shields if they know Israel is just going to kill them anyway?
Israel tries not to kill them so it actually works. See the hospital case. Israel knows that the headquarters are there and yet, not a single bomb.
But when Israel still hits even one of them, then it makes sense to infuriate and raise more terrorists. To reduce the legitimacy of Israel and the victim goes to heaven... It's a win for them regardless of what Israel does.
> You think Hamas wants their own people to die for funsies?
I suggest googling martyrdom and the Muslim Brotherhood which was the source of the Hamas. Their extremist religious belief is that any Muslim who dies as part of the Jihad is a Martyr. Goes instantly to heaven. They even make memes over that, claiming that death isn't the end for them. That's how they get people to blow themselves up.
It's an insane religious interpretation of Islam, you can read about it here (PDF): https://securitypolicylaw.syr.edu/wp-content/uploads/2013/03...
> Or maybe it’s that Israel is a genocidal state that needs to justify globally why it’s massacring civilians?
Let's check that claim... Israel very much has the power to kill everyone. Yet despite throwing thousands of tons of bombs, casualties are still around 8,000 and that's based on the inflated Hamas numbers (and I would argue that the vast majority are Hamas terrorists).
Israel specifically targeted areas with low population, it tracked phone signals and only bombed areas that had low civilian activity. Does that sound like a country trying to conduct genocide?
Notice, I'm not saying Israel is good or perfect. I'm not saying it is free of racism or discrimination. But it does have rule of law and is subject to international oversight, an investigator from the Hauge court is in Israel right now inspecting the actions taken by the army. They need to have the ability to explain every single one of those thousands of bombs. They will need to connect all the action to concrete intelligence.
> Also amusing you post that you can’t know about the civilian deaths. The UN and other human rights groups have confirmed the numbers and said they are probably a low estimate. How is that not evidence for you?
The UN hasn't confirmed any number. They don't know because all of the people are there and afraid for their lives from the Hamas. The numbers include both civilian and Hamas deaths as a single number.
> Divide civilians from combatants? How many of the 1400 Israelis killed on the 7th were IDF btw?
Very few. The posts that were attacked had minimal personnel. The Nova party that was attacked was the main source of victims. The village where our friends lived had 450 people. Around 200 survived, luckily them included by the husbands ridiculous bravery.
> But yeah, you’re right about confirmation bias being a thing.
Sure. I have a side. But I'm a super lefty liberal so I hate the Israeli government and do believe the Palestinians deserve a country. I have Palestinian friends and my heart goes out to them. You're assuming that I implicitly pick Israels side but the opposite is true, it burns me to have to support any army action, especially with the SOB Netanyahu still in charge. I don't trust him at all...
That's the thing, I have doubts but not about how evil the Hamas is... That's proven.
Independent, maybe, but not really free, when all press is subject to the Israeli Military Censor.
Not under international law. If you hide among civilians, using them as human shields, any civilian deaths or injuries are deemed to be war crimes committed by you, not the opposing force.
Look it up.
We're done here.
You mean the 40 beheaded babies or the one in the oven? As so far all these “stories” turned out to be an utter lie.
On the other hand, did you know Tantura (1) Deir Yassin (2) where confirmed cases of killing and raping of minors -per the vets who served that time? and around 1mill Palestinians were forced to leave their houses and homeland back in 1948, and most of them ended up where? in Gaza!, that also has their refugee camp bombed yesterday.. Gaza since 2005 is an open air prison, even years ago they tried to march peacefully to the borders to show the world that there are people still in there dying slowly (3), so drop that victim tone because a “victim” cannot cut water/electricity/internet/food/logistics instantly and proceed to drop 18,000 tons of bombs that’s equivalent to 1.5 times the force of bomb of Hiroshima. Israel is who created that resistance by occupying the land and violating all international laws, most of these resistance fighters are orphans who have their parents killed in previous bombing, and the west bank is under a strict martial law that will put you behind the bars for likes on social media, trying to isolate what happened in Oct/7th as the previous 75years were two loving peaceful “sovereign” nations next to each other before one attacked is pure rhetoric propaganda, only fools will believe it.
(1) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantura_massacre
(2) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre
(3) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_Gaza_borde...
No. Just those that were true, they're enough. I know a few people personally including a family who survived. Most of their village is dead or in Gaza.
> On the other hand, did you know Tantura Deir Yassin.
Sure. There were several such cases on both sides.
I don't want to defend the indefensible. But don't pretend that it was one sided... There were awful atrocities in 1948 on both sides. To be fair, the IDF or Israel didn't really exist yet. There was no real rule book. People just came off the boat from the holocaust to fight for their lives against armies of several different countries intent on destroying them.
But lets talk about the positive sides. The Arabs that did stay in Israel got full citizenship and rights. I can't say there's no discrimination but they do have a supreme court justice and were part of the last government formed in Israel.
> Gaza since 2005 is an open air prison
I'm with you on that. But the blame for that is on the Hamas. Israel has repeatedly tried to lift restrictions on Gaza. Just 4 weeks ago there were 17,000 Gazans in Israeli borders. Some of them illegally and Israel turned a blind eye as part of a misconception that the Hamas "calmed down".
Israel removed settlements from Gaza and wants nothing more than to be out of it. The last thing Israel wants to do is invade Gaza. Notice that even with all the "restrictions" missiles etc. all went through freely. Hamas terrorists were able to travel freely to Iran where they trained in modern warfare. The narrative of a blockade on Gaza is inaccurate at best.
> years ago they tried to march peacefully to the borders to show the world that there are people still in there dying slowly
One of the families murdered on October 7th was a family that held annual kite flying events across the fence for solidarity with the children of Gaza.
OTOH the Hamas used such marches on the fence to plant the bombs they would use to take it down on October 7th...
I know quite a few Gazans and I know the majority of them want peace. As I said, the war isn't against the people of Gaza. They are the poor souls stuck in the middle. Unfortunately, the Hamas is unwilling to compromise or change.
> drop that victim tone
I'm not using a victim tone. That's projection. I'm using a blame tone. The fault is the Hamas's fault only... They left no choice to Israel. They intentionally chose to do that knowing full well that innocent lives will be hurt. They chose to increase the number of Palestinian victims instead of saving innocent lives.
Israel doesn't have a choice here.
> 18,000 tons of bombs that’s equivalent to 1.5 times the force of bomb of Hiroshima
And yet Gaza stands. Israel has literal atomic bombs yet they chose weapons that would allow refined targeting to minimize the impact on civilians. It's still impossible. The cancer of Hamas is embedded deep into Gaza. The fact that so much was bombed and even with the Hamas's inflated numbers the casualties are so low, shows how careful Israel has been.
> Israel is who created that resistance by occupying the land and violating all international laws
That sentence is unclear but Israel doesn't violate international law. On the contrary it abuses it legally.
The occupation is terrible, I'm with you on that. But it is legal. When soldiers are caught violating the law, they are jailed. Yes, I don't want to defend Israeli occupation because obviously I don't believe in that. But there's BAD and there's ridiculously WORSE. The Hamas is worse for everyone involved, Palestinians most of all.
> most of these resistance fighters are orphans who have their parents killed in previous bombing
The Hamas isn't a resistance movement. It's a Jihadi movement. The PLO is a resistance movement. The difference is that a resistance movement has attainable goals and is ultimately interested in peace.
The Hamas is interested only in the end of Israel. The entire country. Now you might hate Israel which is within your right. But it has a lot of people who also did nothing and weren't born in 1948. When it's the choice between Israel and Hamas... That's pretty clear. It also has the greater firepower so this is clearly a suicide mission. They take that route and choose to take with them the entire population of Gaza...
Also the myth of "parents killed resistance fighter" is a tired cliche. Most of them are indoctrinated from a young age e.g.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrow%27s_Pioneers
> the previous 75years were two loving peaceful “sovereign” nations next to each other before one attacked is pure rhetoric propaganda, only fools will believe it.
Who said that?
Most of these 75 years were spent by Israel being attacked by all its neighbors. For the Gazans it was spent under Egyptian rule and for the west bank some was spent under Jordanian rule. When Israel occupied these territories there was no one to give them back to. When it signed a peace treaty with Egypt they didn't want Gaza back. Neither did Jordan.
Israel did try to give these territories to the PLO. That's a historic fact. The Hamas stopped peace from happening. That's also a historic fact. I was physically there so I know it for a fact and don't need to believe the "propaganda".
I recently listened to the "Martyrmade" podcast and I couldn't believe it. There was a time when the British and Arabs were being driven out of Palestine using extreme violence too.
Realistically, we should all be working for peace.
Israel has a lot of blame and any other time I would be with you with the pitchforks against Israel.
This isn't one of those days. I suggest you learn the difference between the stuff the Hamas did on October 7th and the worst stuff Israel did in the worst instances... This isn't even remotely on the scale.
Regardless, this isn't about atrocities. This is about stopping a murderous lying organization that is manipulating western media and mindshare using lies.
Israel and the Palestinians did sign a peace agreement. Guess who stopped it by blowing up MANY busses... One guess...
I also know that Israel are taking peoples homes and land. it doesn't justify terrorism but it's an act of agression in its own right. Imagine if a group came to the USA and started kicking Americans out? I'd like to see how that goes...
The reality is, innocents and children are now being blown up, en masse. It doesn't matter to me "how" it's done.It matter what and to whom the victims are.
Just because you're not using human shields, doesn't mean dropping a bomb from a hi-tech hundred million dollar fighter jet makes you special or absolves you from responsibility, or makes it ok.
Those human shields are innocent people.
No it hasn't. You're talking about 1948 where there was a terrible war. Many Jews lost their homes. Palestinians who left the country couldn't return because of all arab countries were at war with Israel and the borders were closed. The many Jews who ran from Arab countries lost everything too but no one talks about that.
I agree there should be a Palestinian state. Hamas is the #1 reason there isn't one. Israel is a distant #2 here...
> Imagine if a group came to the USA and started kicking Americans out? I'd like to see how that goes...
Funny you should mention that because that group is the Americans...
> Just because you're not using human shields, doesn't mean dropping a bomb from a hi-tech hundred million dollar fighter jet makes you special or absolves you from responsibility, or makes it ok.
It doesn't. That's why Israel tracks every bomb and every firing. There's a special prosecutor from Hauge court right now looking at everything and US involvement also makes sure Israel is taking every precaution. Unlike the Hamas, Israel can be sued for war crimes and is making sure to document every decision so it has a chain back to the intelligence that triggered every bombing.
> Those human shields are innocent people.
100%. Historically, that was the reason Israel didn't deal with the Hamas in the past. That was the wrong decision in retrospect. The Hamas has to be destroyed and there's just no other way to do it. It is terrible.
It is precisely for those who you hate, who you find horrifying, that freedom of speech and other rights matter
This isn't the "people we hate". It's people who abuse the system by spreading hate and misinformation.