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Comment by troebr | Hacker News Reader

My biggest expense being remote is that I need an extra room for my office. Besides that, that would probably be heating in winter and electricity, but these are small compared to the cost of an extra room.

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This is exactly what I think of when considering actual remote work expenses for myself. I live in 600sqft which is not bad for a place to live. But not great for one, let alone two people to work. In terms of quality of life, I think having to work a) within 10 feet of my bed , b) on the kitchen table, having to clean the table of work before every meal, or c) on the couch which is not at all ergonomic; are all huge steps down from the office.

If you already have an office/den to work from, I can see how it's not a big deal. But if you're looking at buying a first home and your requirements go from one or two bedrooms to three bedrooms/1 bedroom & two offices, that's brutal.

From the link

> Although the law regarding these expenses is not yet decided, remote California workers may also be entitled to reimbursement for: > * the cost of dedicated home office space (reimbursement is more likely if the employee was renting or had plans to rent the space to a third party prior to beginning remote work). (Cal. Lab. Code § 2802 (2022).)

If that actually happens I would be very shocked/impressed. But I'm highly cynical of how wants vs needs are going to be interpreted there. To me the mental health benefit of being able to physically leave work is a need, but I know not everyone is likely to see it that way.

If you have the extra room already then you're probably already using it as a den anyways. But if you don't then you're not likely to move and incur the extra expense of having an extra room -- work from office is definitely for you then.

Unless you have special equipment that requires the space you don't need an extra room, you want an extra room.

My partner who works from home has a NDA which means nobody is allowed to even be in the same room while she is working.

That room is more than wanted...

I've got two monitors and a laptop on 1/3 of my computer desk. I'm huddled on a corner literally the point is right where I work. My mouse is 10cm from the desk edge. It sure feels like I need extra room.

You need a bigger desk not a bigger room. Make some compromises and remove some other furniture in the room to accommodate your bigger desk.

Bigger desk doesn't fit if the room is too small. I literally need more room the room itself.

You mean like a desk, a chair, two monitors, a camera, microphone, and video light? That type of special equipment?

Unless you're going to pay for an extra room--which seems very unlikely (or should be) to be reimbursable as opposed to working on the kitchen table--the actual incremental costs seem pretty trivial. Even if you reimburse some pro-rated amount of internet and/or mobile, that's maybe $100/month in the US.

ADDED: If you don't have an option to go into an office, a stipend for a co-working space may be reasonable.

I'm sure the WFH needs have factored into many home purchases in the past few years. It is a real expense.

100% My wife and I both work from home. We are DINK but that still means we need to compete with families for homes with enough space for two offices. I'm not complaining, it's just absolutely a major expense.

Working from the kitchen table doesn’t work if you have a family or really anyone else in the house.

Yup. As someone who has WFH for ~10 years now, it's imo essential. Covid obviously didn't affect my working habits much given i was already WFH, but i knew some who were forced home. They lived in tiny apartments and did that.. kitchen table, couch, etc. It was very rough for them, though they had multiple people in the apartment.

My wife and i both WFH, with dedicated offices. I can't imagine not having them, and we've discussed this being a required feature of future home purchases.

It's privileged for sure, as it increases home size which is an astronomical expensive these days. But not having to buy a home in close proximity to SF or Seattle makes this much more approachable. [good] Internet is the most difficult thing as you go rural, in our experience. However in WA for example some counties/towns have objectives to lay fiber, which is amazing to live more affordably with remote work.

Or if you have like any ancillary hardware, or want a back that isn’t ruined

Or want actually maintain a desk you don’t spend time setting up and putting away each workday. Imagine setting up 2 monitors on the kitchen table each day.

A desk in the bedroom works well enough. You don't "need" an extra room, I've never had an extra room and I've been working from home in all my jobs

You're missing the parent's point. Your setup works for you but what if you and your partner both need to work? Do you both work at your desks in your bedroom? How does that impact your partner's sleep? What if you need to work late but they need to get up early? What happens when they have a meeting when you have a meeting? What if their work involves being on the phone all day?

I think you're looking at this from a solo dev's perspective, where all you do is get up, bang on some keys for 8 hours without anyone else bothering you, and then you're done. Of course that works in a corner of your bedroom where you live alone, but that's not everyone's job and living situation.

But the context of this is whether you should be reimbursed for the cost associated with an extra room if you choose to work remotely for a company that has offices, even if those offices are in higher CoL areas. (There's certainly an argument for providing a stipend for a co-working space for a fully remote company.)

No one is arguing that a dedicated office isn't desirable. It's a question if someone else should pay for it if you want one.

> if you want one.

I think it's not a matter of want, given the kinds of situations I laid out. In my situation, I have ADHD and I'm autistic. If you want me to work I need to be alone to work. It's not a want or a desire. I cannot work in a room full of people and noises, so putting me in one is just the same as expecting me to code without a keyboard.

My employer gives me a computer, why is it such a stretch that they also give me a room? They want the work done at the highest quality, don't they? It's making them a lot of money, isn't it? So what's the problem?

A company is probably not going to give you a private office either. (Maybe they would for ADA reasons? Don't know IANAL.)

Maybe? I’ve always had private offices except when I worked at a startup, but I don’t work in tech anymore so maybe that’s the difference.

Sounds like you want your company to provide what your state should provide. American I assume ?

Of course, there’s no other way to do it in America, that’s the political reality. You can see it in this thread, people wouldn’t want their taxes to pay for accommodations. Just look at our healthcare system, it’s the same thing.

You should already be covered by the ADA for at least some of that.

Still not a matter of “want”, and the ADA had plenty of holes in it. For one getting a diagnosis for these disabilities is very difficult, and took me over a year just to find a provider covered under our healthcare system.

> Your setup works for you but what if you and your partner both need to work?

But see, this isn't my problem. The money the company gives you might be a lower pay raise for me and others who don't care

> but that's not everyone's job and living situation.

That's 99.9% of the cases

I have probably 2 feet between the walls and my bed in that room.

don't skimp on a chair though. A good chair goes a long ways in keeping you from getting tired before the day is done.

There’s these things called home offices and many have converted a room to be one when working from home all the time.

A home office costs you hundreds extra per month, at least in my market (London). I work in the corner of our bedroom right now. My girlfriend works in a corner of the living room.

Its not unheard of to carve out the home office already for tax purposes.

Maybe not unheard of, but currently not allowed for most employees. IIRC, the current test is: 1. Exclusive use 2. Primary place of business (NOT primary workplace - WFH employees usually don't qualify)

That's long been a pretty questionable deduction unless it really is a dedicated space for work purposes. (Also, relatively few people in the US itemize today after the 2018 tax changes.)

How do you value the opportunity cost of an extra bedroom?

It's not just opportunity cost. I have known people buying condo with extra room to use as home office (they picked the one with extra room). It is a very real and significant cost, not merely opportunity cost

Compare the rents of neighboring n- and n+1-bedroom apartments?

> working [full time] on the kitchen table

Good luck with your debilitating back issues in 10 years.

> Good luck with your debilitating back issues in 10 years.

i said this up thread, make sure you get a good, solid, office chair. Work at the kitchen table but sit in something that's specifically designed to have a human in it for 8 hrs a day without killing the human.

If you need to do this, especially if you are tall, invest in a good monitor/laptop stand. Does wonders and a good one is only 60-80. If you need to penny pinch you can get a foldable one for 20-30, but the stability is worth the extra cost for me.

i am paying for an extra room, because i have to live in a place that has that extra room, which costs more money. if i didn't need the room, i could save a lot of money by getting a smaller apartment.

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