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Comment by gizajob | Hacker News Reader

I think it’s basically a crime against children and humanity for parents to put an iPad (flashing meaningless drivel) in front of their children while pushing them through a supermarket, or a park, or in a restaurant. It baffles me how frequently I see this done nowadays, like children need a constant flashing distraction to keep them from asking questions or being bored. I want to smash every iPad I see used like this. Let children be bored and have their own thoughts. It’s not painful for a child to have to sit in a trolley or a stroller while they’ve nothing to do. In a restaurant they might even learn language and ideas from the adult conversation no matter their age. In my eyes, if you’re a parent who does this, it’s a parenting fail particularly given you managed to get through your own childhood without the same.

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My opinion on this topic, while perhaps not as strong as yours, is similar.

I think we inadvertantly created a similar dependence in our daughter, albeit with books rather than electronics.

She is 10 now and, aside from some exposure at school, she has never been allowed personal use of computers and the various computer-like devices we have today.

We did reading curriculum at home between 4 and 5. By 6 she was reading on her own for pleasure.

Today the child walks from room to room in the house with a book. Car rides without a book are accompanied with groans and anger. Any situation where boredom could set in is much worse if she doesn't have a book. She has to be specifically prodded not to read in order to get ready for school, etc, in a timely fashion.

I don't wish we'd done anything differently, but when she does eventually have access to electronics I fear she is going to transfer her extreme book "dependency" to electronics easily.

Sounds like how I was as a kid, always with a novel and then the advent of access to desktop internet in middle school hit. But hey, at least it’s a better foundation for literacy.

I think desktop computers are great for kids. I grew up using one from an early age, and I would have no hesitation giving my own kids that same access.

It's portable entertainment (phones, tablets, maybe even books unless you have a rule that they never leave the house) that I am deeply reluctant about. You can't lug a desktop to the park.

This was me 18 years ago, I think as long as the curiosity transfers to something in the real world over time, this is an amazing thing. Like reading museum placards, writing in a diary about her day to day observations, etc. Also, the reading to writing pipeline is probably the easiest to achieve when someone is young and inculcates a lot of thoughtfulness.

Also I don't think the two dependencies can be equated. Electronics create super short attention spans, books are the complete opposite. So I think she's already doing better than most her age.

Also me when I was young. The only downside was a more realistic (not mature) view of the world. This has lead men to not doing things that would have been mistakes easily forgiven at that age. My real life was a bit boring (I’d carefully select friends, keeping myself out of troubles) because my imaginary life was exciting enough). Apart from the knowledge I acquired, the upside is that I can keep track of a lot of abstractions needed for problem solving.

Whoa, same here! I too had a realistic view of the world, but at the same time was super naive. And the entire phase of teenage rebellion did not exist for me, kinda weird when I see it mentioned everywhere all the time. And "boring" was and sometimes still is the way to describe me - too cautious, and not enough spontaneity.

But I don't think I'd change anything even going back. Too many benefits...

That was me as a kid, and can confirm, that did transfer to the internet.

Same and same. Although I mostly use the internet to read stuff so it's kinda full circle.

OP here - I wouldn’t have anything like the same reaction to books, even though it might be argued that they’re the same as an iPad in being a technological distraction device. I don’t think they are at all, being a world of artistry created by the author, and requiring mind and imagination to decode. If my child needed a book all the time, I’d be pretty pleased about it. My general point was toward both the iPad use as some kind of defeater for the child being bored AND the content on those iPads - every one I see seems to be rapidly flashing, multicoloured simulation of barely even a cartoon, just some irresistible schema of child-directed content. Books are a world away from this. I’d encourage the book reading, it’s a different thing for a child to be engrossed in reading opposed to hectically distracted away from thinking and acting by an irresistible supernormal stimulus. I hope your child grows into a great writer one day.

I was this kid. It led to a lifelong love of reading and illustration which I’ve shared with friends and continue to cherish to this day. Sometimes the only think driving me out the door is the opportunity to draw something new or chance upon a good book or magazine. It also led to terrible eyesight, but generally your daughter is probably going to be fine.

Why does reading lead to poor vision? You've got me interested particularly because I have such an odd dynamic with this. I don't feel like my lens prescription has really changed at all (like ever) but I suppose I would have to check the prescriptions to be sure.

Are there ways to attenuate what you're referring to you are aware of?

It's long, uninterrupted periods of staring at a very near object, usually lit artificially unless you have a pleasant reading space by a window. It leads almost invariable to nearsightedness more than just 'poor vision'. This effect is more pronounced in children due to the fact that their eyes are still growing and change shape much more easily. There have started to be myopic toddlers where this was previously a very rare genetics based phenomena.

My daughter does have some wicked myopia. The optometrist blamed her reading.

You should get her something like VoiceDream or SpeechCentral and load books on to that. I feel like it would keep her eyes more active

Do you ever notice her "hiding" behind books to avoid social interactions or activities?

Because rising a child is genuine hard. And it's only getting harder everyday. The cities are crowded. People are less tolerant to noisy children. If your parenting is not what people expect they will judge you on social media (instead of a very small social circle like before). Many once common parenting practices are literal crime now. And housing and school are only getting more expensive.

The most tolerable alternative is simply not to have children, and it will just be more and more common.

> The cities are crowded

Yup, all people feel the effect of this

> People are less tolerant to noisy children

My tolerance was tested today when a Mum and her princess took up 3 seats at a cafe today and let the daughter watch YouTube videos loudly on her iPad without any headphones.

I still don't understand why parents take their kids to boring cafes and restaurants. Kids want to do noisy things and run around. I didn't go to cafes until I was about 12. Prior to that weekends would be spent be walking the dogs, going to parks, forests, picnics etc

Because the parents want to go to cafe and restaurants. It’s a way to get the kids used to the things they like

I totally get that parents want to get out the house, socialise etc but are you really going to reduce this argument down to /wanting/ to do something? Because you know people will respond with all the things they /want/ to do but don't because of respect and consideration.

Parenting take time and practice. It is unreasonable to expect zero crying while in public.

As the parent takes the kids out more to restaurants and cafes, the kid will slowly learn how to behave. But it’s a process that takes time.

> In a restaurant they might even learn language and ideas from the adult conversation

Their parents will have their phone in hand while pushing the discussions.

On the general point: I remember a time smaller kids couldn't get into most restaurants at all because they would disturb the atmosphere (and I'm sure there's still many shops that won't allow kids).

Also people are way more susceptible to kids being noisy. It might be because exposure to kids has been so low for the majority of adults, but parents will get an utter amount of flack for letting their kid cry or shout and not immediately cater to them.

It's hard to have it both ways, our modern society will need to be more open to kid noise and disturbance if we want parents to just let the kids be kids.

The options aren’t iPad or uncontrollable noise. I think you’re missing the third option - parenting the kids. Disciplining children (even just verbally) seems to be something nobody wants to do anymore. If I was told to be quiet as a kid I did it because I knew I’d get in trouble otherwise.

This third option is not fool proof.

No amount of being told to be quiet to a 1-2 year old will do the Jo .

Sometimes parenting the kid means precisely not giving a response to their annoying and noisy behavior.

Some kids will behave with just a verbal cue. For the better or worse, most won't. That's one of the reason some restaurants have a play area, to deal with that tension.

> Disciplining children (even just verbally) seems to be something nobody wants to do anymore

"Parents these days" ?

You don’t have children.

> The options aren’t iPad or uncontrollable noise

Absolutely. Visit France; see many well-behaved and well-dressed children eating with their parents at cafes and restaurants. It's almost like they respect that this is actually their parents' treat time - that they've been taught that they are not the centre of the universe.

Ah, I miss the days before I was a parent and had strong opinions on parenting.

I get it but also as a parent I also get it

Sometimes the days are long, kid is driving you up a wall and the iPad just…works

My kid isn’t that old yet but partner and I have agreed no screens for first 15 mo at least. So anytime she’s watching TV we turn him away because he’s definitely interested!

Why 15 months?

People used to tolerate whiny kids, now iPad and iPhones have solved the problem.

Now you can hear a groan from nearby tables whenever you take your family to a plane or restaurant

There’s also a lot of people who willingly don’t have kids and some of them think children are dogs which talk and scream instead of barking. Another is the type of parent who has a couple children with the gene of compliance active and think they’re literally gods of parenting and if your child misbehaves it’s your fault.

iPads and iPhones at max volume are arguably more intrusive.

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