It also included offices for the Hamas and was a symbol of its power. That was the main motivation for removing it.
No, I'm not saying that the hospital was actually bombed by Israel; I'm saying that everything that Israel bombs is labelled with the "used by Hamas" tag as justification for what this really is.
No one actually believes that all or even most of the buildings destroyed in this campaign was "used by Hamas" if you are being honest with yourself. It's obviously collective punishment and revenge with a little bit of show ("we dropped leaflets" or "we sent warnings by SMS") for those who need it in order to go to bed at night.
Sorry, no. I don't believe that.
Granted, I'm Israeli, and have far more trust in the Israeli public and soldiers than most people in the world. But it really is true that Hamas uses human shields. It really is true that they place bases in places like hospitals.
And it also is really true that many, hopefully most Israelis, wouldn't comply with an order to bomb a building only to kill civilians with no military value.
I understand why that might be a statement that outsiders wouldn't trust. And I'm sure there have been plenty of mistakes and even many times where people did do the wrong thing, like in every conflict in the world. I just don't think that as a matter of policy, Israel is bombing buildings with no military reason.
If that's the case, then the government propaganda has done its job. There's nothing more to say.
It’s only natural to err on the side of false positives when the alternative is allowing your enemy to live and kill your people later.
This shouldn’t be seen as any sort of approval for this war. I would prefer no war, to the natural consequences of having one.
That's also not to mention the many times Israel has been caught lying to cover its own military actions. You only have to look as far back as the targeted killing of Shireen Abu Akleh
Then don't fucking bomb it. You're defending war crimes and terrorism.
1. It's not a war crime. If one side places their militants in a hospital, the hospital is no longer afforded protection. If anyone is commiting war crimes, it's Hamas, by placing their HQ in a hospital.
2. As much as I'd love to not bomb anybody, they are actively at this moment shooting rockets at me. What exactly should I do? Just wait until they inevitably manage to kill me?
I stand by my statement. You're defending war crimes and terrorism. It's what it is, no matter how justified you believe it is to kill these innocent people.
The Hamas militants that are using hospitals as a base of operations.
If you honestly want to discuss this, then here's my suggestion - let's set aside the factual question for a second. If it's true that Hamas is firing rockets from within hospitals and/or using hospitals as a base of operations, would you then consider it justified to attack back?
If yes, then we just have the factual matter of whether it's true or not and we can check that.
If no, then my followup question is - so what should we do? What other option is there if someone is firing rockets at you right now, if you refuse to fire back? I'm asking in all sincerity, I'm literally running to a bomb shelter multiple times a day as rockets are fired at me, is there something you think is ok for my government to do to try and defend me?
> I'm literally running to a bomb shelter multiple times a day as rockets are fired at me
I'm sorry to hear this. This must be a terrible way to live, constantly in mortal fear of attacks from the other side. I will be the first to admit that I cannot relate to this, I've always lived in peaceful/stable environments (touch wood).
Can I pose a completely hypothetical counter-question, based on your own question with one variable changed: If it were somehow true that Hamas was firing rockets from _within Tel Aviv_ hospitals and/or using _Tel Aviv_ hospitals as a base of operations, would you consider it justified for the IDF to bomb that hospital?
Thank you. I will say that there are people in much worse situations, we still feel relatively normal, except for running to bomb shelters a few times a day and except for the worry that worse is coming. But we're in the center. Many Israelis have had to evacuate their homes and probably won't be back for months.
And of course, the Palestinians in Gaza have it much worse than us, even on a good day.
> Can I pose a completely hypothetical counter-question, based on your own question with one variable changed: If it were somehow true that Hamas was firing rockets from _within Tel Aviv_ hospitals and/or using _Tel Aviv_ hospitals as a base of operations, would you consider it justified for the IDF to bomb that hospital?
An interesting question. I suggest you think about it the same way as what would happen if bank robbers took over a bank in New York, and were firing rockets at the population - would you consider bombing the bank justified? If it were the only way to prevent mass casualties outside the bank, then yes, I think it would be (and would be effectively what the police/army would do.)
But here's what makes this situation unrealistic/different: If Hamas had taken over a hospital in Tel Aviv, the hospital wouldn't continue to operate like normal. The people in the hospital would either evacuate, or would fight Hamas. If Hamas somehow managed to take over the hospital anyway, we'd be talking about a hostage situation where Hamas had a hospital-full of hostages. Then probably what would actually happen is we'd send in soldiers and/or police to try to root them out by force.
If they were somehow holed up in there, and were actively firing rockets that were killing people, then I assume there'd be some determination of whether the army/police were able to remove them quickly, before the death/damage from their rockets proves too much. If not, then for sure there'd be a discussion of whether bombing the hospital is the right choice, though it would have to be a pretty extreme situation (since ground troops probably would be able to get in, and the hostage casualties would be far too high in directly bombing it.)
The difference with the situation in Gaza is obvious IMIO. Whereas in a hospital inside Tel Aviv, Hamas is surrounded by an endless amount of Israeli ground forces that have access to it, inside Gaza that's not the case. I imagine this is actually one of the reasons for the large bombing campaign - to prepare the way for ground forces to invade, so that among other things we can surround any building with troops.
I think it suffices to say that quite a bit of thought and justification would precede striking a hospital in all of these scenarios. I do hope that this level of thought and consideration is standard operating procedure in the retaliations right now. Mainly to restore some morcel of faith I have in humanity. But I, and those disconnected from internal Israeli military comms (ie most of us) can't be sure.
The political optics/rhetoric aside, the images that I see of wounded children are heartbreaking. The recounts I've read about what happened on October 7th are horrifying. If the stats are accurate, they are depressing as hell. This war has amassed almost a fifth of the total civilian death toll of the 20-year long US War in Afghanistan. In. One. Month.
Collectively I think we can agree that this needs to stop. I hope it stops. But given the track record of skirmishes and hostilities in the region, I'm losing faith.
If the statistics of civilian and children deaths are even 50% accurate, even if Israel succeeds in destroying Hamas, I fear the collateral damage and the cost of human life will just create a future generation of armed boys who all lost their parents in air strikeS in October 2023. They might just call themselves something different.
And so the cycle continues.
I know many people on both sides alike want peace. But it will take a truly superhuman person to walk across that border and say "I forgive you."
When that day comes, a person who's death would be mourned by both sides, we may have some hope.
Until such a day, stay safe. I'll go give my kids a hug now.
That you're comparing children throwing rocks to using advanced military equipment to bomb them back says a lot about your values. As if doing the first in any way excuses doing the second.. A child being told to throw rocks doesn't know any better, and doesn't deserve to die for it. Holy crap some of you are out of touch with humanity.
> Then just not fucking bomb the children.
Do you think the IDF is purposefully looking for children to bomb so they can look bad? Hamas use children as human shield and their deaths as propaganda.
Do you want to help Palestinian children? Condemn Hamas for using children as shield. Condemn Iran & Russia for funding Hamas. Condemn Qatar for giving asylum to Hamas leaders. Stop romanticizing "Palestinian resistance" (evil adults sending children to stupid deaths).
It's for the best if all you have to contribute are personal attacks and nonsensical accusations.
Notice that Israel also used phone tracking to check that civilian population moved away from the target. No county that ran a campaign of this type in the past used such an approach to avoid civilian casualties.
I think the bombings are very problematic. But from current reports it seems the ground invasion will be worse in terms of casualties (on all fronts). So it seems like a lesser evil when a building goes down.
It's not about whether I trust them or not (I don't!). It's that everyone is following the same playbook. Israel can do whatever it wants and blame Palestinians with impunity.
Every teenager shot on the street is a militant. Every house that is flattened was used by terrorists. Every journalist that was dies while working was actually killed by the Palestinians themselves.
The power imbalance is not just military in nature. Israel has command of the message as well and the is frighteningly effective because it's just plausible enough.
>Notice that Israel also used phone tracking to check that civilian population moved away from the target. No county that ran a campaign of this type in the past used such an approach to avoid civilian casualties.
What about all the people who can't charge their phones because Israel only allowed 4 hours of electricity per day before the most recent campaign? Or whose phones were lost when their homes were destroyed?
This is a great example. The IDF can make claims about how they "avoid civilian casualties" but why do you believe that it's anything more than for show?
> What about all the people who can't charge their phones because Israel only allowed 4 hours of electricity per day before the most recent campaign? Or whose phones were lost when their homes were destroyed?
If they were trying to answer the question "how many people are in this area?" it could make a big difference, but to answer the question "what fraction of people who were here have recently left this area?" sampling just people with powered on phones just be enough to figure it out, assuming Israel has decent statisticians to analyze the data.
> It's not about whether I trust them or not. It's that everyone is following the same playbook. Every teenager shot on the street is a militant; every house that is flattened was used by terrorists; everyone who has any criticism whatsoever is an antisemite.
I was specifically indicating that my information came from a reputable paper. Not from an a*hole on Twitter. Social media is full of nonsense and terrible people, I don't take part in that.
There is a lot of rage there and a lot of grandstanding.
> What about all the people who can't charge their phones because Israel only allowed 4 hours of electricity per day before the most recent campaign? Or whose phones were destroyed when their homes were destroyed?
This works based on numbers. There are still enough mobile phones to get a sense of movement patterns and target areas that are mostly empty. The army demoed the system to foreign press where areas are marked on a map indicating "safe to bomb" areas. It isn't a perfect system by any stretch but it's the best that can be done in this situation.
I wish there was a way to resolve this without violence. I don't think even the heads of Hamas should be killed. I hope they can be captured and would stand trial if possible. No one should die, especially not the many civilians that are there. But there's absolutely no choice. Every time the Hamas was given leeway it used it for attacks.
Israel released 1000 prisoners, many of them terrorists with blood on their hands as part of a trade a few years back. Most of those terrorists took part in the October 7th attack. They can't help themselves, they are religious fanatics. They are clever enough to manipulate the sentiments we liberals have. Our knee-jerk reaction is to stop violence and they appeal to that. They even manufacture violence against their own people for that purpose.
Its impossible to "pick a side" in this conflict, there are good people and a*holes in both countries.
And, on both sides, its the a*holes (a mild term for people who have engineered decades of war crimes and/or crimes against humanity, including waging war against or actively using inflammatory language to incite the murder of less extreme voices on, nominally, the same side for being less disinclined toward peace) running the war machine and state or state-like apparatus while the good people are trying not to get killed.
Guess which country is the 4th or 5th most secular country in the world... It might surprise you: Israel. Yep.
That's thanks to the "Jews" who are jews in creed, not religion. Israel has its fanatics for sure and they gained more power in the last election. But it isn't controlled by its fanatics by any stretch of the imagination.
Israel doesn't have civil unions. It only has religious marriage any religion is OK but the religions do discriminate. This is both problematic and a blessing. I'm not married to my spouse because I'm an atheist, but Israel has a "known in public" status which gives us the same rights (and some obligations) as married people. That means Gay and inter-religion couples can enjoy all the rights.
Another option some people take is to fly to nearby cypress to have a civil union which is recognized in Israeli courts.
About the broader question. Yes, there are religious elements in the government that have been pushing the secular envelope. This creates a lot of friction within Israeli society. E.g. there's a law against pastries in passover which is just the dumbest thing ever... Unenforceable and just stupid. There's also regulations prohibiting Jews from working on a Sabath (supposedly as a labor protection). Notice that both laws mostly affect people who are listed as "Jews" even if they are secular.
7x as many Palestinians have been killed in this conflict than Israelis. And on average, in the West Bank alone, Israel kills a Palestinian every day.
Moreover, to 'sit back' as an occupied in a situation founded on mass expulsion, in which settlers actively continue illegal territorial expansion is an act of real, profound, material violence.
The Hamas terrorist attacks were the pent up thing. Israel's retaliation is war crimes, terrorism and absolutely inexcusable.
Don't blame the deaths of Palestinian children on Hamas. If Israel didn't want to kill innocents, they could just not bomb them for fucks sake.
> Israel's retaliation is war crimes, terrorism.
You're wrong but if you repeat it a thousand times maybe it will become truth. A war crime is using civilians as human shield. Terrorism is indiscriminately launching rockets at civilians areas, of which ~30% hits Gaza. Terrorism is killing civilians purposefully in barbaric ways to send a message and incite fear. Hamas and Iran are the architects of what is happening today in Gaza.
All you wrote about war crimes is exactly what Isreal does as well. If you can't see that, you should think hard about what propaganda you're listening to.
But maybe it's a coping mechanism? Because acknowledging the truth about the amount of innocents being killed would be unpleasant?
> you should think hard about what propaganda you're listening to.
I listen to both. It's just that Israel at least say some truth (that can be independently verified) while Hamas only lies and play victim.
> But maybe it's a coping mechanism?
I'm far from these events. Maybe you are the one coping and avoid unpleasant facts.
There is no way to support Israels bombings, killings thousands of innocent children, no matter how it's framed. If you do, you might as well spell it straight out instead of hiding behind weak arguments: you support the killing of children.
For me it just underlines how people need a flimsy excuse so they don't have to openly support killing civilians.
Maybe Israel lied about this, I don't know. But I do know the Hamas lied about many things. Just now a Hamas representative was interviewed by the BBC claiming they didn't kidnap or target civilians... Wow. The audacity of the lie is staggering.
The symbolic nature of the building doesn't appear to be a lie. Since there were many offices in the building it would make sense the Hamas has some offices there. I don't see that as a huge lie.
> during the war you cannot demolish communication infrastructure, churches, mosques, hospitals, news agency offices, schools, civilian homes, etc. As demonsrated in this war, the first casualty is the truth that paved the way to countless atrocities.
It's very evident that you didn't say synagogues... I'm guessing I know where you're coming from to this debate...
Umm you can if they are being used for military purposes.
Many governments are dictatorships or autocratic. Some are democratic. I dont think it matters. You have the same responsibility to civilians regardless of the form of government.
> carte blanche to raze the city
Generally not. But you can certainly destroy buildings used for military purposes. Where this conflict falls on this scale is pretty unclear thus far.
> eliminate its civilian population
Definitely not. Israel has not done this.
> displace ... its civilian population?
Maybe. There are certain circumstances under the geneva convention where this is allowed, and it seems likely the criteria was met in this conflict. You of course have to let them back once the fighting has subsided.
For cases where the original person is now dead (1948 was 75 years ago), i think its reasonable that that person's descendents should split appropriate compensation.
What im getting at here is - if someone was driven out and owned a 1 bedroom apartment, they are only owed a 1 bedroom apartment. If they had 50 grandchildren they are still owed only the single apartment not 50 apartments, one for each heir.
The other big issue is this was 75 years ago. Much of this property probably doesn't exist anymore. I think due to pure practicality, cash compensation would have to be the way to address this issue.
Still, there are levels of blame and the current situation. The Palestinians in Gaza are held hostage by an evil organization that keeps escalating and using ceasefires to increase armaments. I would love it if Netanyahu would be out of office right now and someone "competent" were running things. But this is the position we're at.
Personally I think it could have worked given time and more intelligence work but now it will be much harder. The Hamas controlled the school system in Gaza. I just watched a video of a bunch of kids, no older than mine. Cute as pie, telling the camera how horrible the Jews are and that they want to drive a car into them when they grow up. That nothing is more holy than to be a martyr for god. Pretty fucked up stuff.
It's pretty tragic.
Reference for people reading this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrow%27s_Pioneers
Israeli official says will fight Starlink’s deployment in Gaza
The minister of communications has said Israel will “use all means at its disposal to fight” the use of Elon Musk’s Starlink to support connectivity for aid groups in Gaza.
Posting on X, Shlomo Khari said if the Starlink satellite internet is deployed “Hamas will use it for terrorist activities”.
“There is no doubt about it, we know it, and Musk knows it,” he wrote.
“Perhaps Musk would be willing to condition it with the release of our abducted babies, sons, daughters, elderly people,” he wrote.
Musk had made the offer to use Starlink in Gaza earlier today, although further details have yet to emerge.
Cutting communications before an invasion is pretty basic military strategy. Unfortunately, it also cuts civilian population off but as we asserted... The Hamas is embedded in civilian population and uses them as human shields. It steals fuel destined for hospitals and has made itself rich over the backs of the Palestinian people.
I don't think you are being honest here.
What evidence do you have that the Israeli intelligence was wrong in this case?
The evidence here is not a press release of isreali government/military saying that they destroyed it because it was being used by hamas for military purposes. They can say whatever they want and you can do, but without providing evidence this becomes a lie.
Note that I am here talking about very specific case and claim. If you want to say hamas lie too that's fine but completely irrelevant in our context here.
We are talking about this specific claim and this specific claims because I don't want this to go in general direction.
And the burden of proof is on you not you. You claimed something and you should provide the evidence. Don't try to tweak things by redirecting the question
I get that Israel should be held to a higher standard than the Hamas. But your specific attitude makes no sense. Intelligence information is internal, wartime bombings target decisions are privileged information.
This is not the problem, people who claim something have to provide the evidence if asked, you don't respond to them by re-directing the question and ask them for counter-proof. At least in the normal world. I don't know about you.
> I get that Israel should be held to a higher standard than the Hamas
Providing evidence to claims is now a higher standard? man you live in a wild world.
> But your specific attitude makes no sense. Intelligence information is internal, wartime bombings target decisions are privileged information
So they can attack and kill anyone and claim they were military targets, and when asked for evidence then they will not provide because it is internal? Do you know what claims without evidence can be considered, yes propaganda like the one you tried to spread in this comment which is our discussion context.
Yep, that's the world we live in. Politicians, corporations, journalists frequently don't. Even "scientists" from time to time fake data & results. Military at least have a valid reason for not publicizing intel, specially in times of war.
No we don't. However, I did provide evidence which you choose to ignore. You also claim that the army would bomb a place for no real reason which just doesn't make sense. Especially for the first target in a campaign. It's you who should provide evidence, not me.
> > But your specific attitude makes no sense. Intelligence information is internal, wartime bombings target decisions are privileged information > > So they can attack and kill anyone and claim they were military targets, and when asked for evidence then they will not provide because it is internal?
Nonsense. This is an attack on a building. Bombing is a coarse instrument and the IDF holds regular briefings where they provide evidence.
All the papers spent a day claiming Israel bombed a hospital killing 500 people. Total lie and the Hamas knew it when they came out with it. The IDF gathers and provides evidence for relevant situations (e.g. the Hospital bombing). It is accountable unlike the Hamas which is not.
Thank you, that was the answer that you should just say from the beginning.
Are you for real expecting this for an ongoing war still in its early days? I'm not saying those questions shouldn't be asked and of course the IDF will make mistakes but you are being unreasonable.
> They can say whatever they want and you can do, but without providing evidence this becomes a lie.
It's not necessarily a lie, just not verified yet.
> If you want to say hamas lie too that's fine but completely irrelevant in our context here.
It's not irrelevant. Hamas and the IDF are not equivalent.
It's a long established fact that Hamas modus operandi is terrorism. Recently the Hamas lied that the IDF bombed an hospital and killed 500 Palestinians, there is ample evidence that this was a blatant lie. All over the Internet there are reports/videos that show Hamas faking stuff to generate commotion.
Israel military intelligence is one of the best in the world. The IDF go steps further than any other country in history to minimize collateral damage. They warn civilians in the area before striking, they use roof knockers.
The minister of communications has said Israel will “use all means at its disposal to fight” the use of Elon Musk’s Starlink to support connectivity for aid groups in Gaza.