When Israel invaded Gaza in 2014 they killed 2,310 people. 70% were civilians. In return they lost only 67 soldiers. They also destroyed 7-10k homes and damaged 87k other homes.
Between 2005-2008, 1,754 Palestinians and 117 Israelis have lost their lives due to the ongoing occupation. Between 2008-2023 2,329 more Palestinians and 308 more Israeli people lost their lives.
The vast majority of Israeli casualties are soldiers and the vast majority of Palestinian casualties are civilian.
Now in the span of just a few days Israel has killed over 7k more Palestinians. This isn't "retribution". This is an ongoing genocide. One which the UN has tried to intercede OVER and OVER and OVER again but always fails. Despite almost every single country in the UN voting on the side of Palestine there is one country that ensures Israel is never held accountable for its war crimes: the United States.
Between 1954 and 2023 the US has used its Veto power to strike down 34 resolutions relating to Palestine and Israel. Resolutions that the entire rest of the world's countries supports. Resolutions that could've stopped or significantly reduced this ongoing bloodshed
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2013/10/03/more-whit...
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2005/04/15/american-eva...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/10/25/many-evan...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/05/14/h...
I think there's a problem when you apply different standard to Jews vs. everyone else or are parroting some narrative that has anti-semitic aspects to it.
For example, I would call people contesting the right of Israel to exist, despite many generations of Israelis living in that area, despite the UN's recognition of the state of Israel, and despite the historic connection of the Jewish people to that land (and there are ofcourse many non-Jewish Israelis which people tend to overlook), anti-semitic. If someone aligns themselves with this message, I would also tend to consider them anti-semitic.
I would likely agree with much of your criticism of the west bank settlements and the behaviour of the settlers there and in general that is not anti-semitic. It's not black and white- there are many lies being propagated and there is are many truths that deserve criticism. Propagating lies about jews is basically what anti-semitism is all about and it is rampant.
Both sides need to take care of their extremists. Otherwise this will just go on and on.
The fact that both of those conflicts are at the root religious conflicts is probably not a coincidence. Believing Israel can not co-exist with the Palestinian Arabs is as good as bankrupting the state of Israel or accepting eternal conflict, neither of which are good outcomes. This won't last.
Likely the only workable solution is a single state solution with some special protections for the Jewish people. Maybe a federation of some sorts. This is not going to happen in this generation. Given the demographics of the region I'm not sure it'll ever happen. Unfortunately the future looks bleak, more so for the Arabs, but really for everyone.
The 'right of Israel to exist' is the right to maintain (by force) a demographic majority created by mass expulsion because Israel is an ethnostate in which only one race has full civil rights. Allowing the right of return to Palestinian refugees and their descendants to the homes from which they have been expelled since 1948 is the negation of Israel's 'right to exist' because 'existence' here has nothing whatsoever to do with the existence or survival of Israeli citizens.
There is absolutely nothing annihilationist (nor anti-Semitic) in denying Israel's 'right to exist'. Despite its pretensions to the contrary when convenient, Israel is not 'the Jewish state' and its people is not the Jewish people.
Personally, I don't think any country has the "right" to exist. Neither the Israelis nor Palestinians have any moral right to a country, and I think that the notion that "nations", which are often ahistorical fabrications, have the right to self-determination is bullshit.
I agree with you "right to exist" is bullshit. A country exists or doesn't exist and it may also cease to exist if it can't remain a country. That's about it.
Oh, sorry I misunderstood.
Not all Jews though.
The US singleminded support of Israel has cost an incredible amount of money and political capital, but it helps congressmen and senators get reelected and lines the pockets of defense contractors, so clearly it is keeping the right people happy.
The USA generally is unpopular in the Middle-east, but Israel is a very strong and strategic foothold in that part of the world for the USA. Likewise, Israel is also very unpopular in the region, so they welcome any resources they can get. With all that being the case, it is mutually beneficial for the two countries, especially militarily.
And lest anyone misunderstand where I'm coming from, I believe almost anything that is beneficial to USA military interests is probably bad.
Vox has a good high level summary of the history here: https://www.vox.com/world-politics/23916266/us-israel-suppor...
You say "in return" 67 soldiers died. That's not how any of this works. In conflict, you try to kill as many of the enemy soldiers as you can, while getting the least amount of death on your side as possible. You're not trading some number of kills until everyone is even.
More Palestinian civilians die because the Israeli military is far stronger than the Palestinian's "soldiers", and because Hamas uses human shields.
> Now in the span of just a few days Israel has killed over 7k more Palestinians. This isn't "retribution". This is an ongoing genocide
Please, I've asked this of many people - in what sense is this a genocide? Provide some definition of genocide that this falls under. There is none, because this isn't a genocide. Israel's goal is not the eradication of Palestinians. It never has been. The way we know this is that the Palestinian population has basically doubled in the last 50 years.
And despite the terrible, terrible civilian cost on the Palestinian side (which is horrible, and which any decent person should be appalled at), the amount of dead in Palestine is basically a tiny blip compared to any other conflict in the world, including several going on right now.
Any dead civilian is too much, but the amount of dead in Palestine is just the opposite of indicating a genocide.
But like I asked, if you have a different way of thinking about this, please, tell me what you mean when you say there's an ongoing genocide.
keep in mind the blockade and hindering the economic development of Gaza is not new.
there is no such thing as eradicating hamas because Israel and its policies are a recruitment tool. This conflict will continue and the children today will be fighting in a few years because what choice do they have than resist.
The palestinians don't hide that their high fertility rate is politically motivated and have structured their society to marry young and have a lot of children as it is an act of Resistance.
not all children make it, the malnutrition rate was around 15%. again, all caused by Israel as they have control major aspects of that open air prison.
I think if you are shooting fish in a barrel and the international community lets you do it, you don't get to complain about the splashes and you certainly shouldn't be claiming the moral high ground.
no matter how much the politicians or corporate mainstream media keep repeating it, Israel and its apartheid genocidal policies don't have international support.
The blockade of food and water is new. And if you're saying this is not new, how can it be a genocide if people aren't dying because of it? Genocide is defined as killing off a population, but while life is certainly not great for Gazans (to say the least), Israel is not killing them.
> combine it with a bombing campaign that is indiscriminately targeting civilians and their infrastructure, from internet to hospitals is a war crime.
Your facts are wrong. It's not indiscriminate shooting. Israel is targeting militants, which make it not a war crime. It is an unfortunate (truly unfortunate!) reality that the militants choose to place themselves among civilians, including under hospitals, on purpose, which means that Hamas is responsible for two crimes - both shooting at Israelis, and getting Israel to fire back on their own civilians that they are supposed to protect.
> there is no such thing as eradicating hamas because Israel and its policies are a recruitment tool. This conflict will continue and the children today will be fighting in a few years because what choice do they have than resist.
Well there is eradicating Hamas. It is a specific group with specific people in it. ISIS was eradicated, after all.
But yes, it's a complicated situation.
But there is a choice other than resist - if they give up on the idea of getting back all of Israel (which effectively means eradicating the Israeli state), if and they give up armed resistance, there could be peace tomorrow. The Palestinians have had many deals put forward and chose to continue fighting.
I really wish there was a for everyone to get what they want, but if what they want is for my country to disappear - well, sorry, what am I supposed to say to that other than no?
> not all children make it, the malnutrition rate was around 15%. again, all caused by Israel as they have control major aspects of that open air prison.
Just to be clear, Egypt is also blockading Gaza. No one is blaming Egypt, and no one is committing terror acts against Egypt. Why is that?
Also, you call it an open-air prison, in what sense? Gaza is under the control of Hamas, Israel left it twenty years ago. All they've done since then is wage war against Israel.
It's not new. Food insecurity has been an issue for years.
The blockade has caused severe food insecurity and malnutrition among the 2.3 million people living in Gaza⁴⁵. According to the World Food Program (WFP), more than 60% of households in Gaza are food insecure and rely on humanitarian assistance⁵. The blockade has also affected the availability and quality of food in Gaza, as many products are scarce, expensive or expired⁵.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/25/un-report-80-p...
>> how can it be a genocide if people aren't dying because of it?
I'm not waiting to see what happens when people are starved for weeks and I'm not the only one calling it a genocide:
- https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/damning-evide...
- https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/10/28/kilj-o28.html
>> It's not indiscriminate shooting.
The strength of hamas is their tunnels and underground networks and how they use them to traffic weapons, goods and people to circumvent the blockades. That's the source of their power and bombing buildings changes little to Hamas infrastructure or leadership (which is in Qatar/overseas). Even destroying civilian infrastructure like cell towers and Internet does little. Hamas uses hardwired lines and radios as again, the city is small enough to be called a prison and they are fully aware of Israeli digital surveillance.
Did bombing civilian villages change anything to Viet Cong tunnels in Vietnam? Or, the allies during WW2 bombing campaigns in Japan and Germany, did it rally the people against the authorities? The answer to both is no.
>> If and they give up armed resistance, there could be peace tomorrow. The Palestinians have had many deals put forward and chose to continue fighting.
Honestly, if you want to continue this conversation, I'm open to discussing those deals and brainstorming solutions such as grassroot peacebuilding projects, virtual diplomacy (difficult now that the population is voiceless, huh?), and economic integration.
But, I don't believe it's honest to say Israel has displayed good will when Israel has implemented a system of permits and licenses that restricts the ability of Palestinian workers and businesses to access Israeli markets. Palestinians face limitations on exporting their products to Israeli and international markets, which can hinder economic growth and development.
Any palestinian allowed to work are usually limited to agriculture and construction sector and often restricted to the occupied / settler zones.
I want to define "Grassroots Peacebuilding" clearly because it's something I'm interested in and I believe in the power of individuals: "Prioritizing grassroots initiatives that bring Israelis and Palestinians together for dialogue, joint projects, and community-building activities can help build trust and understanding from the ground up. This approach emphasizes the power of individuals and communities to drive change."
>> Egypt is also blockading Gaza. No one is blaming Egypt, and no one is committing terror acts against Egypt. Why is that?
People are not blaming Egypt because it's not bombing Gaza and preparing a ground invasion.
Egypt is blockading Gaza (as evidenced by the fact the border was only open for 23 days in 2022) https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2022/6/15/the-seven-borde...
The rationale for the Egypt blockade as I understand is:
- Egypt considers Hamas a threat as it is an offshoot of the Muslism Brotherhood which was ousted from power in 2013.
- Egypt accuses Hamas of supporting militant groups in the Sinai Peninsula, where Egypt has been fighting a long insurgency https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/egypt-arab-co...
- Egypt also wants to maintain its peace treaty with Israel, which it signed in 1979. By preserving the status quo of the blockade until a lasting solution is foudn, Egypt maintains its role as a mediator and is not undermined by siding with one party over the other. It also continues to benefit from economic and military aid from the United States https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/egypt-arab-co... and avoids fueling the conflict which could spill into its borders as it already hosts millions of refugees from conflicts in Syria, Sudan, Ethiopia etc.
Please note I have to get going with my day but I will reply later.
Thank you
Edit: because I got my links mixed up
> The blockade has caused severe food insecurity and malnutrition among the 2.3 million people living in Gaza⁴⁵
First of all, I'm not sure I understand where your citations are (the 4, 5 superscript), am I missing something? I didn't see any mention of food insecurity in the link immediately following.
The outside view here is that Palestinians haven't been dying of malnutrition over these last twenty years. Yes, outside aid is necessary, but Israel isn't denying that outside help in general.
Btw, it's worth asking why this is automatically Israel's fault. Hamas is the government of Gaza, if Gaza is doing poorly, aren't they at fault? They could invest in improving their lives.
> I'm not waiting to see what happens when people are starved for weeks and I'm not the only one calling it a genocide:
I'm willing to bet whatever you want that Israel will not cause mass starvation among Gazans. We wouldn't do that. If we do that, then yes, that's evil. But despite everyone being super worried about the Israeli response, it's been 3 weeks, we're currently at war, and there's be no mass death of Gazans. (Again, the thousands of civilians killed is tragedy enough and I don't want to minimize that, but it's also definitely not a genocide.)
Btw, the groups you link to are... not very persuasive to me.
> The strength of hamas is their tunnels and underground networks [...] Did bombing civilian villages change anything to Viet Cong tunnels in Vietnam? Or, the allies during WW2 bombing campaigns in Japan and Germany, did it rally the people against the authorities? The answer to both is no.
Now you're talking strategy, you're asking if in practice Hamas can be rooted out. I have no idea! I'm doubtful about it as you are. I hope we can, because I think the only way for Israel to be safe, and coincidentally the only way for Gazans to be safe, is with Hamas gone.
I don't expect the bombings of Germany to have turned the populations against the government directly, but I don't think that was their only goal or the fact that they didn't means they weren't worth doing. Though I know very little about this topic - very possibly these weren't morally justified! Idk.
> People are not blaming Egypt because it's not bombing Gaza and preparing a ground invasion.
Yes, but I meant why are people not saying that Egypt is starving Gaza too, or causing Gaza to be underdeveloped too.
And yes, Egypt isn't bombing Gaza, but Gazans aren't sending rockets at Egypt either. Which, reminder, they're continuing to do to Israel! I have had to run to a bomb shelter almost every day for 3 weeks, sometimes multiple times per day, as they try to kill me. Surely my government is allowed to do something to respond, like trying to bomb the people shooting at me to get them to stop?
> [...] I don't believe it's honest to say Israel has displayed good will when Israel has implemented a system of permits and licenses that restricts the ability of Palestinian workers and businesses to access Israeli markets. Palestinians face limitations on exporting their products to Israeli and international markets, which can hinder economic growth and development.
I mean, I think it's absolutely ok for Israel to not allow any Palestinian into Israel. For one thing, it's a separately governed entity - I'm not allowed to come work in the States, because the States has an immigration policy that precludes it. This doesn't mean the States is oppressing me or that it's not showing good faith towards me.
As for export limitations, don't know much about which limitations exist. You might be right about this. (I certainly don't get behind everything the government does, especially this government which is terrible in so many ways.)
> Honestly, if you want to continue this conversation, I'm open to discussing those deals and brainstorming solutions such as grassroot peacebuilding projects, virtual diplomacy (difficult now that the population is voiceless, huh?), and economic integration.
I'm definitely open to discussing it. And I've seen several Israeli Arabs and several Palestinians speaking out against Hamas and for peace.
I'm all in favor of peace. But Hamas has made it very clear that they are not, and that no peace is possible with them, nor any security for Israel. As an Israeli, the security of myself and my family has to come first - it shouldn't be at the expense of anyone else, but because of Hamas, it is at the expense of their own people.
I'd love nothing more than a way out of this horrible situation we're in. It's not up to me, and I honestly believe that, despite how Israel acts, it's not up to Israel either - it's up to the Palestinians to decide they actually want peace. I honestly believe that as soon as they do, Israel will jump at the chance to make peace. (And just to be clear, I think Israel is pushing this away too, mostly because most Israelis believe that peace is not currently possible.)
First, I didn't know you were Israeli. I live in Canada, far from the conflict and although it has been going on for decades, this moment feels different. It feels we are witnessing collective punishment on a large scale (and it's only beginning) and no one is attempting to de-escalate or even consider the future and its ramifications.
Having said that, I don't live under an "iron dome" and my life is not at risk; so, I can sympathize but will not be commenting on that as I have no lived experience of that level of stress and anxiety. No one deserves to live like that.
In Canada and many western countries, the media is biased towards Israel and the double speak to hide the truth and remove context is off the charts. When comparing the coverage with the Ukraine conflict, there is a silence similar to the Saudi's genocide in Yemen. You don't hear from Yemeni people, you don't see coverage from their perspective. It's the same thing now with people in Gaza. Compare this to Ukraine where we had the stories/experiences of individuals constantly relayed in the corporate media.
>> it's not up to Israel either - it's up to the Palestinians to decide they actually want peace
I completely disagree with that. Again, I see little to no good will from Israel. There are no humanitarian corridors open. People cannot escape. People can go south but even the Rafah (Egypt's border) area was bombed and they also bomb the south of the city in general. I will spare you repeating the talks of dehumanization, eradication from your democratically elected government officials as you've already expressed more empathy than any of them towards civilian lives.
But, I completely reject the notion that this violence is happening in a vaccuum and that Israel didn't play a role in causing this. Again, not alone here, as there are at least 15 U.N resolutions condemning Israel in 2022 alone and of course, vetoed by the U.S.
When I read about the lives of people in Gaza (before October 2023), I'm not surprised a movement of resistance like Hamas emerged. Gaza is under a blockade, their movement is restricted, their trade and goods are restricted, electricity, food etc. and it has been like that for years. It's why it's compared to a prison and Israel is its warden, literally. Israel shows little regard for Palestinian lives and they are treated more like a pest to be managed than the long distant cousins they are.
The lie is: Gaza has been left alone and the people/government have failed to make something of themselves. Meanwhile, I read/watch the lives of people in Gaza (very little footage as many journalists are not allowed to enter Gaza by Israel and are accused of being propagandists) and I can't even imagine how I would live my life under those circumstances without resorting to violence, radicalization or desperation.
Here are two videos that influenced me:
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hw4CH-Jg6lY This was filmed before October 2023 and shows the reality of the blockade, the lives of people in Gaza and their resourcefulness despite the safety/economic constraints.
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnZSaKYmP2s This was filmed in 2019, mostly in the west bank (which is a whole other disaster) and convinced me about Israel's intent and its so called "good will". I watched it when I heard Abby Martin on the Joe Rogan podcast. I haven't watched since.
Feel free to educate me if you have good material / videos / projects / initiatives you'd like to share that would change my perspective and help put an end to this conflict.
My wish for you is to find security and peace, and I hope that it will not come at the expense of many lives.
Oh nice, I have lots of family and friends there, and I've been many times, what a wonderful country.
> Having said that, I don't live under an "iron dome" and my life is not at risk; so, I can sympathize but will not be commenting on that as I have no lived experience of that level of stress and anxiety. No one deserves to live like that.
Thank you. No one really deserves to live in any kind of war zone. For sure the people in Gaza have it far worse than we do here.
I will say, one thing that I think keeps getting "lost" by outsiders to conflict is just how different it is to live under threat of annhilation. That's something I think outsiders don't really understand, because they mostly think Israel is "all-powerful" in this conflict. And for sure Israel is more powerful. But people here vividly remember that we are surrounded by enemies that have attacked us many times, and that absolutely might be able to overwhelm us. It's happened before, and this current situation makes us all feel incredibly scared that a wider war will break out. Many Israelis I know have fled the country for fear of a wider conflict.
I'm not saying this excuses all behavior, but for sure, when talking with Westerners, it often feels like they just don't have a concept of a real war that could destroy their country. And that makes sense - most Canadians/USians are hundreds of years removed from that kind of worry.
> But, I completely reject the notion that this violence is happening in a vaccuum and that Israel didn't play a role in causing this.
I agree, of course it didn't happen in a vacuum. I'm not trying to say Israel is faultless, or that the Palestinians don't have very legitimate grievances.
> Again, not alone here, as there are at least 15 U.N resolutions condemning Israel in 2022 alone and of course, vetoed by the U.S.
I just want to give you an Israeli's perspective on this. We absolutely hate the UN, and assume it is incredibly biased against Israel. Which makes sense, since it's not a democratic institution, it's far closer to a popularity contest, and there are more than 20 Arab countries, representing 200 million Arabs, as opposed to only one Israel representing 7 million Jews (or 15 million worldwide Jews).
As proof of this bias, per Wikipedia:
> Since the UNHRC's creation in 2006, it has resolved almost as many resolutions condemning Israel alone than on issues for the rest of the world combined.
Now, say whatever you want about Israel, I don't think there's any legitimate way to make the claim that it deserves more condemnation than the rest of the world combined. Not even close.
> I will spare you repeating the talks of dehumanization, eradication from your democratically elected government officials as you've already expressed more empathy than any of them towards civilian lives.
Just for the record, I am against that kind of talk. I understand where it comes from, and I think in some cases people are blurring between things said against Hamas vs. against all Palestinians, sometimes intentionally (on both sides). But I think it's wrong.
> Gaza is under a blockade, their movement is restricted, their trade and goods are restricted, electricity, food etc. and it has been like that for years. It's why it's compared to a prison and Israel is its warden, literally.
Israel withdrew from Gaza, after which they elected Hamas, with the avowed intent to destroy Israel. Israel then implemented a blockade to prevent them getting weapons.
Let's say Israel lifted that blockade and allowed free movement - do you think that Hamas wouldn't just arm themselves even more and commit even more violence? Even under the current situation, where aid and things are going through the blockade, you have videos that Hamas themsleves put up of them digging up water pipes meant for the populace, and turning them into rockets.
> Again, I see little to no good will from Israel. There are no humanitarian corridors open. People cannot escape. People can go south but even the Rafah (Egypt's border) area was bombed and they also bomb the south of the city in general.
If we're talking in general, I think you can see goodwill by the fact that Israel has agreed to several peace deals that the Palestinians walked away from, the fact that Israel completely left Gaza, the fact that after every time Hamas started shooting rockets at Israel, it has agreed to a ceasefire despite being objectively much stronger than Hamas. As terrible as the rockets alway were, it's not like Israel couldn't have any of the dozen times this has happened decided to go in and do far more damage.
Also, I do ask that you judge Israel not by some ideal moral standard, but by the standard of how other countries have acted or would act in similar situations.
As for goodwill in the current situation, all I can say is, two weeks ago everyone was up in arms at Israel saying that it was giving Gazans 24 hours to evacuate, turning off the water and blocking food, etc. I said then, that Israel would not let Gazans starve, and would not create a mass casualty event. Israel still hasn't, and I continue to stick by this statement - while many Gazans will regrettably lose this lives (and I really do regret this), Israel is not going to indiscriminately kill Gazans, there will be no mass casualty event neither by bombing nor by mass starvation etc. While Israel has bombed a bit in the south, it is mostly not bombing there and mostly allowing Gazans to escape to the south.
I don't have proof of any of this, but all I can say is that I've been right so far and all past actions have shown that Israel is not trying to mass kill Gazans, despite always having had the ability to do so, and there's just no real way to think otherwise when looking at the actual numbers.
(And I will reiterate again - every civilian death is a tragedy. I even think it's a tragedy that any terrorists/militants have to be killed, because despite the civilian/combatant distinction, most of them are scared/angry teenagers too! I definitely think Israel has sometimes killed innocent it didn't have to, just like any other army in the world, but I don't think any of Israel's actions are consistent with it trying to create a genocide, period, and I've seen no reason to think otherwise except people saying "this time is different and Israel will cause a genocide".)
> The lie is: Gaza has been left alone and the people/government have failed to make something of themselves. Meanwhile, I read/watch the lives of people in Gaza (very little footage as many journalists are not allowed to enter Gaza by Israel and are accused of being propagandists) and I can't even imagine how I would live my life under those circumstances without resorting to violence, radicalization or desperation.
I don't mean to sound callous, truly, but people live in bad conditions all over the world. Gazans are certainly not living in good circumstances, but there's many people around the world who live in far worse conditions. And it's worth reiterating - if they would agree to ceasing violence and compromising with Israel, we would have peace. They don't have to resort to violence any more than anyone else does - it's only because they refuse to accept Israel existing as it currently does, only because they refused and refuse to compromise, that they continue to be in this current situation.
(And once agian, I mostly blame their leaders for this, not the "average citizen", and also put a lot of blame on Israeli leaders, who have for years done nothing to encourage peace and done plenty to discourage peace.)
> Here are two videos that influenced me:
I don't have time to watch these right now (they're long), but will try to watch them soon. I'll try to think of good resources.
I wish for peace too. Unfortunately, it's a two sided thing, and one side really hasn't tried to achieve peace all these years. (And the Israeli side is somewhere between "giving up" and "actively try to discouarge peace", so it's not like our side is perfect.)
A lot of people share concerns regarding potential escalation in the region, although I hold a different perspective on Israel's vulnerability to annihilation. There may be retaliatory actions, yet it is evident that the United States is providing support, as demonstrated by the presence of two (or three) carriers ready for engagement. On the other hand, Gaza faces a significant threat of annihilation. I do agree with you that the likelihood of Canada experiencing war is low, with the primary concerns being terrorism within our borders or the possibility of a nuclear strike.
>> We absolutely hate the UN
And, also, the ICC (Internal Criminal Court) apparently. Along with a few countries like: United States , China , Russia , India , Indonesia , Israel , Sudan , North Korea , Syria.
The resolutions are often a response to actions taken by Israel that are perceived as violations of international law or hindrances to peace efforts. It is not a matter of bias against Israel, but rather an attempt to hold all nations accountable for their actions. Although there are many Arab nations, the resolutions are passed based on the consensus or majority vote of the member states, which includes a wide range of nations with different perspectives and interests.
Dismissing the U.N as a biased organization isolates Israel on the international stage. Perhaps it doesn't matter given the emphasis on catering to the United States as the primary base of support and main audience.
>> Israel withdrew from Gaza
I believe statements like this is where you and I will strongly disagree.
When I see snipers shooting children who are fenced up, shooting medical personnel, shooting journalists, all deliberate, done with intent by IDF snipers; I don't call that withdrawing from Gaza.
This is the video I'm talking about: https://youtu.be/HnZSaKYmP2s?t=2673 explaining the practice of picking targets and killing them. Explained by General Zvika Fogel
This is a recorded video of the practice and performed by Israeli snipers: https://youtu.be/HnZSaKYmP2s?t=2844
This explains how food is restricted or as Israel puts it: "Putting Gaza on a diet" (2006) - Dov Weisglass, an adviser to former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert. https://youtu.be/HnZSaKYmP2s?t=464 by only allowing 4 hours of electricity per day (cannot store food) and watching the caloric intake requirements to avoid malnutrition.
This was all filmed in Gaza around 2018/2019. You are welcome to watch the rest if you find the time; I hope those short segments change your perspective.
We have many problems with indegenous tribes in Canada (long history) but they are not fenced up, blockaded, shot at and bombed. This is what Israel snipers remind me of: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0DqnUk90lo and why Israel is condemned internationally.
While I may not fully endorse Hamas, I hesitate to label it as a terrorist organization without further examination. Instances of violence, as depicted in the video mentioned and recognized by numerous U.N resolutions, involving IDF soldiers and the actions of "settlers" in the West Bank, are acts of terrorism.
When you watch those video segments, do you still believe Israel is a nation interested in peace? Because all I see is a nation interested in the degradation, humiliation and brutalization of people. Israel certainly doesn't get to act outraged when Palestinians resist and fight back against that type of oppression and occupation.
A few definitions so words still have meaning because they easily get distorted in this conflict:
``` A terrorist is an individual who engages in acts of violence, typically targeting civilians or non-combatants, with the intention of instilling fear, spreading terror, and advancing a particular political, ideological, or religious agenda. These acts are usually carried out as a form of asymmetric warfare, where the perpetrators lack the conventional military power to engage in direct conflicts.
A terrorist state, also known as a state sponsor of terrorism, refers to a nation that provides financial, logistical, or ideological support to terrorist organizations. Such states may offer safe havens, training facilities, weapons, funding, or even intelligence to terrorist groups, enabling them to carry out their activities. This support can be motivated by various political, ideological, or strategic interests.
```
Since no international governmental body can, I genuinely hope Israeli individuals can hold their government accountable through democracy and better access to information/education.
Again, I'm 100% open to new material if you want to share your perspective and change minds.
I mean, I think it's unlikely Israel will be completely annihilated, but a larger conflict in which we are attacked from several different countries can be devastating. And it's definitely a real possibility that Israel could be conquered.
> It is not a matter of bias against Israel, but rather an attempt to hold all nations accountable for their actions.
Well, do you think the fact that there are more resolutions against Israel than against all other countries combined is reflective of Israel being worse than all other countries combined? If not, how do you explain it?
> Although there are many Arab nations, the resolutions are passed based on the consensus or majority vote of the member states, which includes a wide range of nations with different perspectives and interests.
There are many Arab nations. There are also a huge number of Arabs and Muslims, many of whom are ideologically opposed to Israel. Many of them live in various countries, including many countries in Europe. Just look at the vast anti-Israel protests that are happening across many countries.
This gives a lot of political pressure to many countries to oppose Israel in various ways. Voting against Israel in the UN is a cheap way to appease large blocs of voters.
I'm not saying this necessarily means the UN is biased against Israel, but for sure take that together with the fact that a majority of resolutions are against Israel, and it paints a picture in my mind. (Remember, big as the conflict with Palestine is, the number of dead is tiny compared to any other conflict, including some happening as we speak).
Btw, here's one example of why Israelis dislike the UN so much - it is fairly common knowledge that Palestinian children, taught in UN-run schools, get material which teaches them to hate Jews/Israel.
Here's one video on the subject I randomly found on YouTube, there are lots of others but I tried to find one that isn't from an Israeli channel (just in case you don't trust it): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkOPVXiTqoI
> >> Israel withdrew from Gaza
> I believe statements like this is where you and I will strongly disagree.
> When I see snipers shooting children who are fenced up, shooting medical personnel, shooting journalists, all deliberate, done with intent by IDF snipers; I don't call that withdrawing from Gaza.
To be clear, by withdrawing from Gaza, I mean that Israel literally removed 7k of its own citizens, that were settlers in Gaza, removed them and forced them back into Israel. The existence of these settlers were one (very valid) complain the Palestinians and the international community had against Israel.
So Israel forcefully removed these settlers, withdrew all soldiers from Gaza, and said that Gaza can govern itself. Gazans then elected Hamas (or Hamas took over, not sure what's the correct way to put it), which caused Israel and Egypt to blockade Gaza fully in order to keep weapons out of their hands.
> This is a recorded video of the practice and performed by Israeli snipers: https://youtu.be/HnZSaKYmP2s?t=2844
While I certainly condemn killing anyone unarmed and for no reason, this video doesn't give much context on what's happening. I don't believe there's large-scale targeting of medical personnel and journalists. But the border is the border, and soldiers do defend it.
As far as I can tell about that specific clip of a sniper, while it's a pretty horrible video, there does appear to be important context. For one, that person wasn't killed (which is unclear from the video). For another, it appears he was trying to plant a bomb on the border. (I don't know for sure that's true - I just tried to search for a bit of context online about it and that's what I found.)
But it's just not true that there is a large scale IDF campaign of shooting random civilians. Yes, the IDF gets things wrong, and yes, they do zealously protect the border. But that's a very different thing than what you're alleging, and despite the fairly horrible video, it's not evidence of what you claim. I can find thousands of videos of US soldiers doing horrible things, that doesn't mean the US is using its army to commit terrorism and war crimes.
> While I may not fully endorse Hamas, I hesitate to label it as a terrorist organization without further examination.
Ok let me disagree with you strongly here. In what sense is Hamas not a terrorist organization?
On October 7th, Hamas entered into Israel and killed 1400 people, and took 200 people hostages. Most of those were civilians. They raped and tortured people, did absolutely horrendous deeds. In what way does this not fit your definition of a terrorist organization?
Have you seen some of the stuff they did on October 7th? It is absolutely horrible, the worst crimes imaginable. If you have not, I urge you to look into it if you want to actually understand what Israelis feel they are up against. (Though don't watch if you don't want these kinds of horrible images burned into your brain forever).
Btw, if we're already talking about international recognition, Hamas is designated as a terrorist group by the US, UK and Canada. (And iirc, not by the UN, which again leaves many Israelis questioning the UN.)
Force is the only thing you will respect and is why Hamas exists. Until Israel starts treating others with a semblance of humanity, there will never be peace.
If you visit Canada, feel free to say hi. Perhaps I could introduce you to my jewish neighbor (and Israeli reservist) who hopped on the first plane to go commit war crimes. Only a few weeks vacation to commit atrocities and he will be back. Of course, no one will call him a terrorist or war criminal or hold him accountable; hell, he even gets called "Canadian" despite not hesitating to obey the orders of a foreign government.
All cool and normal.
Ummm, I didn't accuse any dead children of planting bombs. And what I deny is that there is large-scale planned killing of journalists, I certainly don't deny that it ever happened.
> Perhaps I could introduce you to my jewish neighbor (and Israeli reservist) who hopped on the first plane to go commit war crimes.
You, on the other hand, flat out say that someone flying to Israel to defend their country is literally going to commit war crimes. Unless you know something more specific about what your neighbor is going to do, that's a pretty serious accusation to make.
So, just to know - is there anything at all that Israel could do right now that wouldn't be considered a war crime? Or do you honestly believe that the only moral move Israel can make at this point is to lay down our guns and, what, hope for the best?
I'm sorry zionists thought that they could steal people's land, force them out of their homes, kill the ones who resist, put the rest behind a fence, treat them for generations with no humanity and act surprised when the oppressed hop the fence, return to their homes and still have the house keys to massacre the intruders and thiefs occupying their property. Unlike Israel, Hamas doesn't have a fancy prison system to lock up Israeli children and show them what "humane treatment" really means.
But hey, I apologize if I can't continue this back-and-forth banter with you. I highly doubt I can change your mind, just as you won't be changing mine. The footage I'm seeing only confirms my belief that there's a slow and deliberate genocide happening. No amount of fancy rhetoric can justify bombing hospitals just to close a tunnel or destroy a weapons depot, or whatever excuse they come up with. It's as simple as that.
This level of carnage and punishment inflicted on an entire population is absolutely unjustified. Sadly, I have no power to stop it, but I won't let Israel get away with washing off all the blood with empty words of forgiveness and forgetfulness. This will forever stain your civilization, just like Germany has been marked by the Nazi regime. And unlike the Germans, you will never learn or grow from this. Instead, you'll keep playing the victim card.
You hit the nail in the head. Why they don't pursue peace? Why they engage in Jihad?
It is impossible to look at this blackout, especially knowing Israel's history of covering up and reading their war crimes since before the foundation of the state (see: the Katz controversy and the massacre of Tantura), and not think that its purpose is to minimize the images and information coming out of Gaza so that Israel can conduct its genocide in the dark.
The voices of Palestinians do not count, especially when they are only telling eyewitness accounts (see, again, the Katz controversy). When it comes to Israeli war crimes, only documentary evidence presented by (and ideally curated from) Israeli voices seems to reliably count.
Whatever happens in the next few days, surviving Gazans will doubtless remember. But to the rest of the world, and to history, much of it will be 'lost'.
Something really bad has been happening there for the last decades, but it's so messed up and mixed up in past mistakes, revenge and religion that there is no more ability to reason with either side.
What really galls me is that we were so close to finally solving this and then Rabin was murdered (by his own side, go figure) and it all went to pieces.
I don't think you can really call the lunatic who killed Rabin (or worse, the lunatics that urged him on and enabled him) part of Rabin's side.