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Comment by pelorat | Hacker News Reader

That's not how it works in Sweden. A few years ago a restaurant tried to hire only non unionized workers. When the restaurant union found out, they showed up and prevented customers from entering the restaurant. Don't mess with unions in Sweden. If Tesla don't sign they might find a big trucks on my front of their service location literally blocking the entrance.

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I'm surprised that you describe mob rule as something good. Would you like someone to park a bunch of big trucks in front of place because they won't pay you protection money? It's extortion and should not be held as some ideal. If you want to protest to let customers know something that's fine - the minute you harass or stop customers/business you've crossed the line.

Well this mob rule has ensured some of the best working conditions in the world for the Nordic countries. While having very flexible industries, with less labor conflicts than most countries. Why is it okay for an individual to get what is theirs, but not a collective?

Having $200k federal savings per person due to oil extraction also helps.

That’s Norway, don’t involve the rest of us

classic HN. business can do whatever it wants with impunity but god forbid people actually have any equal power.

did you know the nordic countries are among the happiest and have some of the strongest social benefits in the world while still being wealthy?

> did you know the nordic countries are among the happiest and have some of the strongest social benefits in the world while still being wealthy?

I do wonder how much of this is due to cultural homogeneity and the benefits that follow. Will this remain the case in the presence of a larger proportion of immigrants? I don't think its a fair comparison, when people contrast Nordic countries with the US.

Many studies have found that social trust is higher and easier to maintain in homogeneous societies.

You're wrong about the immigration part. They now have to use the army to fight the gangs in Sweden.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66964723

Exactly. As soon as immigration increased, crime and disorder increased. It's easy to maintain utopia when everyone looks and behaves exactly like you.

Unions are mob rule in that sense. If you want to work and the union doesn't want you to, you obey your union boss. Wherever you put power, it will sometimes be abused, even if it's worth it overall for you.

In Sweden there is no requirement to be in a union to work at a company with union agreement. A company cannot require (or forbid) union membership of employees. Also a union cannot require that you are member to be covered by their collective bargaining agreement.

How are the unions funded? In the US it's a slice of the member's pay which means that even if you aren't in the union you still pay that - if the union instead negotiated its payment direct from the company I think a lot of anti-union complaints would go away.

If you join there's a monthly fee. You can pay a little extra and get additional unemployment payments if you get laid off.

Why would you still pay it even if you aren't in the union, if it's a slice of members' pay?

Because that's the agreement many of the unions have with the company - in a "union shop" you have to pay dues, even if you're not a member of the union. So of course everyone joins the union.

The difference between this being done legitimately and illegitimately is not one I can put into words[0], but I would note that there are ways this can be legitimate in any society — the police, in a democracy (sometimes described as fancy mob rule), where the protection money is normally called "taxes" — and that quite a lot of countries are stopping people from doing business with Russia right now as part of a protest against what they're doing in Ukraine.

Unions have whatever powers they've been allowed to have by the country they operate in, just as do corporations and police forces.

[0] Where you put the line between balancing the powers of unions vs. corporations is one of the major political dividing lines for the last 175 years, I'm not going to do it justice.

I think the post you're replying to didn't say it's good or bad, they merely reported some facts about unions in Sweden (not sure they're if accurate or not, but I have no specific reason to doubt them).

The alternative to this “mob rule” is government mandated minimum wage. And, ehm, I mean, have you seen what the government will do to get their way? They stop businesses and harass people, and then some.

showed up and prevented customers from entering the restaurant

Well no. They showed up and discouraged people from entering by generally being a nuisance and creating an uncomfortable atmosphere where you wouldn't feel like eating lunch. Had they physically blocked people from entering that would have been illegal.

Does that not count as illegal harassment? If a bunch of teenagers were angry at a restaurateur for some reason and did the same, the police would likely disperse and/or arrest them where I live.

Does that not count as illegal harassment?

The unions have very good lawyers that know exactly where the line between legal and illegal harassment is.

You're describing extortion.

It's one thing to discourage people from engaging with a business because of their labour practices, it's another thing entirely to actively prevent them from doing so.

If a murder is multiple crows, then a union is multiple thugs.

To be clear I don’t mind if some group of people employs collective bargaining as a negotiation strategy, but the described behavior should be swiftly punished with fines, reparations and possibly light prison sentences. Alas, many unions are somehow above the law in matters of harassment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_strike

This is similar to the way things work here except the unions here are reactive to their own needs only. I doubt another auto unions workers would try to block a Tesla plant, they would try to block their own plants only.

Well, that's what tow trucks are for.

It's not like Tesla has a real customer presence that would be driven away or anything. It's not a restraunt.

The truckers are likely unionized though

Why didn't the restaurant just have the police come and remove the trespassers?

Nobody was technically trespassing. Large groups people from the union stood outside the restaurant and tried to convince people not enter, but since none of them physically blocked anybody that wanted to enter from entering, there was nothing illegal about it.

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