I take issue with the phrasing. No one can force upon me their moral obligations. It’s my choice alone.
I stand by what I wrote, although it could be argued in less stringent terms.
> (Norway) the most robust democracy in the world (which also happens to be a EU member state)
Norway is not in the EU.
> Hungary and Poland, are still immature barely-liberal regimes with more than a whiff of political repression (“flawed democracies”)
Coming from a Spaniard? Go fuck yourself.
Like tripu, I am strongly and vocally in favour of privacy and individual agency. But some of the ideological drip in this piece left a bad taste in my mouth.
You are right, thank you! I just fixed that.
> Coming from a Spaniard? Go fuck yourself.
I was already fixing the error, and writing in my head the kind answer above. I hadn't seen this nasty comment.
Why the ad hominem?
I'm ranking governments — not individuals — according to international reports I've seen. Those classifications are debatable, of course. There might be bias, or nuances I'm missing. But why do you presume malice on my part?
How on Earth is it relevant that I'm a Spaniard?
He probably can't trust you because _he's known too many Spaniards_. (Sorry for being off-topic, but I really could resist making that reference to the greatest movie of all time;-).)
More on topic:
> Hungary and Poland, are still immature barely-liberal regimes with more than a whiff of political repression
I don't know what reports you've read, but I don't think we have any "political repression" here in Poland. Mind you, we had a huge demonstration opposing the ruling party 2 weeks ago (and many more in earlier months/years), and I haven't heard about any nasty consequences for people taking part in them. Though there is a lot of propaganda, both in the country and abroad, painting the government (which, by the way, was more or less voted out two days in an election) as some kind of evil empire, but that is just that - propaganda.
That said, I understand that (almost) nobody has time to study politics of 50+ (or more) countries just to write a blog post or something, so it's not like I blame you.
I used these reports, which I already knew before writing this post:
• Both Poland and Hungary are classified as “flawed democracies” by The Economist. Only 24 countries are considered to be “full democracies” (and this is irrelevant, but Spain happens to be among them). https://pages.eiu.com/rs/753-RIQ-438/images/DI-final-version...
• On a scale of 0–100 on political freedom, Freedom House gives Poland 81 points and Hungary 66 points. (This is irrelevant, but Spain gets 90 points.) https://freedomhouse.org/countries/freedom-world/scores?sort...
• The UN's Human Development Index ranks Poland #34 and Hungary #46. (This is irrelevant, but Spain ranks #27.) https://hdr.undp.org/system/files/documents/global-report-do...
• Amnesty International on Poland: “Access to abortion was further limited. Criminal charges were used to curtail freedom of expression. The authorities continued to erode the independence of the judiciary. Freedom of peaceful assembly was restricted. Violations of LGBTI rights persisted.” https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/europe-and-central-asia/...
• Amnesty International on Hungary: “Discrimination against LGBTI and Roma people persisted. Women’s sexual and reproductive rights suffered significant rollback. Teachers were denied the right to strike. Pushbacks of refugees and migrants continued in violation of EU law. The European Court of Human Rights ruled that Hungary had violated the ban on collective expulsions. Other judgments from the Court were not fully implemented. […] The European Parliament declared in September that Hungary could not be considered a full democracy.” https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/europe-and-central-asia/...
That is still compatible with a dispassionate evaluation of the democratic quality of its political system.
Again, I'm not necessarily defending my sources here. But I'm not automatically discounting them, either.
The Economist classifies Hungary as a flawed democracy due to a very poor mark in "political participation", "functioning of government" and "civil liberties". Those sections look at measures such as "voter participation/turn-out for national elections", "the degree to which the judiciary is independent of government influence", "the degree to which citizens are treated equally under the law", "how pervasive is corruption", "is there an effective system of checks and balances on the exercise of government authority", etc.
Freedom House ranks Hungary poorly in aspects such as "are safeguards against official corruption strong and effective", "are there free and independent media", "is there freedom for nongovernmental organizations, particularly those that are engaged in human rights– and governance-related work", "is there an independent judiciary", etc.
If you have reports that put Hungary at the top on rankings of democratic health, freedom, civil rights, etc — please share them, and we can evaluate their merits. Otherwise, these reports are the most comprehensive I know of, so I have to use those.
> The authorities continued to erode the independence of the judiciary.
This is highly debatable, though I do not claim to know enough about this issue to be able to say a lot.
> Violations of LGBTI rights persisted.
I'm not sure what exactly they mean, but I suspect this may be about so-called "same-sex marriage". The definition of marriage as a union of one man and one woman is fortunately written into Polish constitution, which is quite difficult to change, so there's that. (Also, not calling a same-sex relationship a "marriage" does not really violate anyone's rights.)
> Access to abortion was further limited.
Which - given how abortion is basically killing innocent human beings - is a huge step towards freedom (more precisely, the right to live).
EDIT: also, I love how you mention Spain time and again. I can only assume you come from there, and if that's the case, I highly applaud your patriotism.
Aparently,
> "by the end of [2022], 79 Polish administrative units still declared themselves so-called 'LGBT-free zones'. [...] LGBTI rights defenders faced ongoing criminal and civil proceedings. [...] In January, during court proceedings brought by one activist who had been arbitrarily detained for 24 hours after the so-called Rainbow Night protest in 2020, the police officer who arrested him admitted: 'We were instructed to stop all persons displaying the colours of LGBT, regardless of how they behaved'".
> Given how abortion is basically killing innocent human beings - is a huge step towards freedom
I don't think that condemning a fetus with terrible congenital defects to be born against the will of its parents is a step towards freedom.
> I love how you mention Spain time and again. I can only assume you come from there, and if that's the case, I highly applaud your patriotism.
I don't know whether you're being honest, or sarcastic. In any case: I tongue-in-cheek "defended" Spain above just because @Radim said to me: "coming from a Spaniard? go fuck yourself" ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37914718 ), which I found baffling, irrelevant, and very nasty.
I am against all patriotism and nationalism. I am not "proud" or "ashamed" of privileges or defects that I got by chance, or traits over which I bear no responsibility or I can't control.
Assume I'm from North Korea. Or from Vanuatu. Let's discuss ideas, not individuals, please!
This one is a widespread fake. As for the rest, I don't know, though I suspect similar. As for
> LGBTI rights defenders faced ongoing criminal and civil proceedings
at least some of the Polish LGBTI right defenders have a rather... rough relationship with the law (outside their activism).
> I don't think that condemning a fetus with terrible congenital defects to be born against the will of its parents is a step towards freedom.
It is. Every human being, irrespective of their age, has the right to live.
> I don't know whether you're being honest, or sarcastic.
100% honest, sorry for not making it clear enough.
> Let's discuss ideas, not individuals, please!
Patriotism is an idea, and a very noble one at that.
Anyway, thanks for keeping the discussion civil. (Also honestly.)
You'd think the people of Poland and Hungary (who voted in their leaders, democratically, repeatedly) have horns and drink baby blood. This undermines your other valid points re/ privacy – who'd want to hitch their moral wagon to someone this naive?
The "Spaniard" part was in reference Spain being the bedrock of fascism (via Spaniards…), and remaining a dictatorship long after WW2. In stark contrast to the struggles of Poland's "immature" democratic republic during the same period. The irony was too sweet to pass up.