A year ago it was mgr > sr mgr > director > sr Director> vp> svp > ceo.
No one in my management chain was impacted but the flattening has been happening organically as folks leave. LI has a distinctive lack of chill right now contrary to the company image, but generally things are just moving faster.
I don't get it. Did linkedin have an image of being a chill place to work?
I don't work for Google or anyone else on Stierlin Ct.
Ok, so, I have a friend who works big tech and he has no chill for Indians (SWEs, PMs, etc). Is there a grain of truth to the “lazy Indian” trope? I always assumed, especially first generation immigrants, would be working balls-to-the-wall. Am I wrong? Is there some sort of incentive misalignment in the H1B program? Is it cultural (e.g. like “island time”, which I’ve learned is at least partially attributable to the futility of working harder under the tyranny of distance)?
I’m not saying Indians are Lazy. I’m asking is there a perceptual issue due to some factor that’s obvious to the typical Nth-generation American?
> Is there a grain of truth to the “lazy Indian” trope?
I wonder if it has to do with out-sourcing farms. I have been lucky enough to work with Indians who were all full-time employees and generally my equals. The typical Indian who works at an outsourcing farm makes so little, that they don't exactly care to work hard.
> no chill for Indians (SWEs, PMs, etc).
I'll be honest. I occasionally run into people with very strong and vapid opinions about entire countries based on 1-2 anecdotal experiences. I haven't seen this issue with other fields. It is oddly CS specific. In no other field have I met people who are so obsessed with the productivity of their peers, when the entire organization works on making ads software 5% faster.
My experience echoes this. I worked with a guy who basically built every important thing the company depended on and he seemed to be available 24/7. I’d get on calls with him at 12am and then hear he’d been on with someone the following morning at 7am. He was also notoriously prickly (possible bc he was working so damn much!). I distinctly remember him screaming at me, in his broken English, “WHO HERE IS THE ENGINEER!?”* when I had the temerity to question a minor technical decision of his. Nevertheless, I walked away respecting the hell out that guy and still get a chuckle out of the memories.
*I was a mere data analyst at the time and thus a barely functioning human in his eyes.
Indian here. First generation, naturalized American, et cetera. I'll be honest and say that my initial response was, “Ugh! Your friend is a big old racist”.
Moving on from that reflexive thought, I'll attempt to answer your question of:
> I’m asking is there a perceptual issue due to some factor that’s obvious to the typical Nth-generation American?
Well, perhaps. There are a bunch of factors:
- The H1B program is terrible in that it ties your immigration status to your current employer. Couple this with the “you can be legally fired because your boss doesn't like the color of your shoes” climate in the US and you have a pretty stressed-out bunch of people. - A lot of consulting companies seem to pay just enough wages that attract Indian H1B employees of a average to low caliber of talent, and hire them out for random software projects. The Americans on the other side of those contractors get mad at the contractors, who happen to be all Indian. - There is a genuine cultural gap where Indians are more deferential to someone they perceive as having higher authority. It is sometimes possible that a young Indian employee might call you “Sir”, because that was how they addressed superiors.
So...all these are perceptual issues of the sort you are looking at. But honestly, these sorts of cultural misunderstandings are not exactly uncommon among Europeans and Americans as well. Big Tech tends to have far fewer of the issues above. Salaries are high (I don't even work in Big Tech and my salary as an H1B was verifiably higher than some of my American coworkers), and IMO there isn't a huge difference between Indians and the N other cultures that make up the boiling pot of tech.
But then that brings me to the part about “friend who works big tech and he has no chill for Indians”. Like, Indians period? What does he think about Sanjay Ghemawat? What about Vinod Khosla? How about Amit Patel, who came up with Google's “Don't Be Evil”? What about the engineers/PMs/etc. in big tech to whom those issues don't apply?
All of this leads me to conclude (this time after some reflection) that your friend is actually just a...big old racist if he has a problem with all Indians in general, especially those working in Big Tech.
Take from that what you will. Hope you find better friends :)
I very much like a lot about Indian culture and people, and I've met a couple of very sharp Indian programmers who I'd gladly work with again, but I think it's understandable that some tech workers in countries like the US have a reflexively negative impression of working with them even before considering some of the cultural differences in the workplace.
* I feel very bad in these interactions, but it is an immense struggle to understand some very thick accents that some Indians have. To be frank, remote work has made this communication even tougher, as any imperfection in the audio makes already difficult communication very awkward. There's only so many times you can say "I didn't quite catch that" or "Can you please repeat that, the audio glitched out" before it becomes obvious that you just can't have a normal discussion with them.
* Many peoples' experience with Indians is through very low-quality recruitment sweat shops. Traits these recruiters exhibit include being bad communicators, pushy, disrespectful of social norms, have questionable motives, barely understand anything about the tech they're recruiting for to the point of even getting the names of technologies they're looking for wrong, and are rarely worth dealing with.
* I don't blame Indians for doing this out of their own self-interest, but nepotism seems to be rampant. Any company that gets a few Indians in positions to hire eventually seems to focus on hiring their own people first. Not good for your future in a company if you're not in that group.
* I don't blame anybody for trying to seek the best deal they can in life, but the H1B program has shitty properties for both immigrants as well as the existing workers in countries who get displaced. The main beneficiary of the H1B program is companies that use it to drive wages down. Hard to have reflexively pleasant feelings about this circumstance, despite it not being their fault.
There's nothing wrong with that - it's awkward the first 3 times, a non-issue ever after.
My problem is with the use of flowery, deferential language to mask misunderstandings. My sample count is 3, so I'm not going to say anything about a 1bln+ nation (I somehow don't want to self-identify as the GP's friend) - I'm just noting it happened more often with those 3 guys. I have no idea, even, in what part, if any, it was intentional, so - again - just noting it happened.
What's interesting is that it somehow went away after ~1/2 to 1 years. My guess is that it takes people a while to internalize drastic changes in assumptions they make. I know it takes me around 2 weeks to start pronouncing people's names correctly (sorry!), which requires an effort looking like a rounding error compared to moving countries and cultures.
I thought it was a temporary working visa more than a route to immigration? I understand the temptation to go for it (I did something not entirely dissimilar working in another country for a few years under temporary visas) but not the mindset that doesn't take into account the reality of the arrangement, which is well known up front.
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[1] https://www.vox.com/recode/2021/2/16/22280502/google-dont-be...
If you underpay talent anywhere they'll do their bare minimum.
I've hired and (product) managed Indian employees and they're equally as capable as our Israeli, Eastern European, and SV employees - we just pay them market rate in Bangalore/Gurgaon/Hyderabad.
Depending on the age of your friend, they might just not be as used to dealing/communicating with non-American background people? I remember some assholes like that when I was a kid and my dad was working in the industry in the 90s and 2000s.
It's gotten better but you still see some dicks here on HN.
An American isn't gunna jive with the work culture in those regions - it's more cutthroat and productive IME - but luckily there are plenty of diaspora Israelis, Indians, and Eastern Europeans who are fine returning to the old country to act as a GM or Director while earning a $100-200k salary in countries where the median income is $40k, $20k (Czechia), and $2k respectively.
There was a bit of a communication barrier with some of the Indian colleagues, depending on their skill level, but as a rule they worked hard and were approachable.
If someone speaks perfect English, gets all the in-jokes and is in general great to work with, you'll think of them as a "team member", even if they happen to be from India. But if someone has problems with the language, doesn't get the jokes, and/or has a vastly different timezone, you'll remember them as distinctly "Indian".
That means if someone asks you to remember experiences with Indian coworkers, you might be more likely to recall the people that didn't work out well, because they stood out more strongly.
Then my own employer did exactly that after a rough few years and layoff rounds. Some of my Indian coworkers are my best ever, but dealing with sensitive personnel issues (HR & IT type work) while facing time zone and cultural barriers is still prickly.
Remote offices in other countries don't always feel "same team".
There is no way this is actually a trope.
There is none. I worked at a big tech company where a big chunk of positions were moved to India, and the teams in India were constantly overworked and under pressure.
Watch shows that are popular in my age demographic (eg. Succession) and the flashiness is the takeaway for most people about high paying "elite" jobs (and ignoring the toxicity and horrible WLB these jobs often have).
I've met many younger friends and mentees who have this idealized image of IB/PE/PM/VC/BigTech SWE/Consulting because the perks seem dope and it sounds "sexy".
No one wants to message that in reality, high paying jobs have high responsibility, ownership, and politics - it's my head on the chopping board if my product/divison's P&L sucks.
Also, a lot of these TikToks and Reels have some backing from HR/Recruiting. My sibling has done something similar on their own IG after getting the go-ahead from HR and Recruiting.
You don't need a giant amount of amenities and every company I've worked at hasn't had enough meeting rooms.
If I'm adding to my wish list it's a shower so you can bike to work and rinse off. It's the daily conveniences rather than the crazy atypically perks I never use that I value.
a very slimy and backwards model
perhaps it is, but that's the business a lot of big tech is in. ads drive everything. google is an advertising company with a lot of data mining on the front-end.
if your ad game and monitization isn't tight then you don't have a company, you have a public service, and one that will gas out pretty quickly.
Yeah I think Elon is almost picking up that slack. But I doubt anyone could find him at an yoga class
Keep in mind a lot of the slacker are really good at pretending to do real work and they've had a long time to hone their skills.
The gp I think is talking about rage bait videos on social media where people used to post how work was so easy at xyz company. We should know better than rely on rage bait for information. Ask your friends who worked there if they knew anyone slacking off.
That being said, the amount of things happening is crazy compared to two years ago and generally pretty happy day-to-day and genuinely excited to go to work in the morning
I can't imagine a company image being less "chill" than LinkedIn. Perhaps the reputation as an employer is that, but as a Company (and product) it's basically Facebook, for people who are not "chill"...