Underwater Chain Saws

This is the most strained connection employed to engage in Apple-bashing that I've seen in quite some time.

I feel like we need an Apple-themed Godwin's Law - namely that no HN thread is complete without someone somehow managing to bring up Apple and how evil and undervalued they are.

The irony is that high-end Macs have been widely laughed at by people who don't have a use for them...while various creative and scientific sectors gladly pay that expense because unlike the commenters they're actually using them to make money; for example, the G5 and first-gen Mac Pro had enormous memory bandwidth that made them ideal for a lot of scientific data processing, medical imagery, running instruments, etc.

You think Apple is expensive? Licenses for Dassault Catia start at $12,000.

Please also consider how much less inclusive and accessible computing would be if access to development tooling was placed behind such exorbitantly priced paywalls... The things we have at the moment aren't perfect, but I feel like the fact that the barrier of entry to programming is so low is an overwhelming positive that I couldn't see any level of bells and whistles justifying taking it away.

Visual Studio does cost thousands for some versions.

And yeah. It certainly is a better tool than Xcode.

I worked at the company which used a proprietary compiler, IDE including debugger.. It was few thousands $ I believe. plus about the same amount for their proprietary JTAG adapter.

Worst software I ever used. Crashy, slow, critical features missing (example: debugger can show thread list... but not the stacks of other threads).

So no, I would not expect expensive commercial software to be better. It might generate 2% faster code or be certified, but the day to day experience would be terrible.

> Sometimes I wonder how good our dev tooling would be if we were willing to pay thousands a year, as opposed to the time-wasting bug-fest that is Xcode.

Jetbrains used to make an IDE for Objective C and Swift, but they sunset it last year due to weak sales. They still make fantastic tools for other programming languages though.

I can imagine why these things are expensive, as someone who occasionally cleans the local Olympic pool using an underwater vacuum cleaner (just a side gig to get free diving time). Salty or chlorinated water (and public pools usually use heavily chlorinated water) will dissolve almost anything over time - I've seen chlorinated water eat through plastic or neoprene in 2-3 years of use. Account to that mentioned vacuum cleaner is used practically every day, through the whole year, now you have to imagine that these things must be designed for heavy-duty things.

$4100 is peanuts compared to how expensive are (professional) underwater jobs.

> Sometimes I wonder how good our dev tooling would be if we were willing to pay thousands a year, as opposed to the time-wasting bug-fest that is Xcode.

Look no further than embedded development. Everything costs a fortune, but makes Xcode look polished and a pleasure to use. And I really hate Xcode.

That's the weird thing about software development, it can be done on a small budget. But large companies will find ways to spend money, i.e. by using loads of CI servers on AWS.

>Amazing how capable tools can be, in industries that simply cannot get their work done without them and are willing to pay a healthy amount.

The cost has to be that high, considering the annual market for hydraulic underwater chainsaws can not be more than a few hundred at best. Considering the environment these are expected to work in means the R&D costs are considerably higher than your bog standard chainsaw, with much few units to spread that cost over.

Apple has the biggest cash reserve of any company in the world.

Xcode is most certainly not free, at the minimum you need an apple computer. So you must pay apple to use it.

If it sucks, it's not because a lack of money, it's because Apple doesn't care.

> willing to pay thousands a year

That chainsaw is a yearly subscription? I'd rather pay once for a chainsaw.

Just imagine what a chainsaw for Mars will cost.

> I wonder how good our dev tooling would be if we were willing to pay thousands a year

Would we pay that directly or our employers? Also, how many would pay if the benefits are greater productivity for their employer instead of greater income from increased velocity?

It's so no matter what they know they'll win any followup lawsuits hah!

'Your honor, our manual clearly stated to maintain proper footing and balance at all times, which the diver clear did not do, resulting in his unfortunate death when our tool exploded and severed his air line. We move for summary dismissal.'

I can't imagine what the kickback would be like if you weren't secured when using one of these. I've never used one of these, but I imagine you would need to be braced against something when using it.

I'd guess that if you're cutting something with a chainsaw underwater, they expect you to be standing on the bottom of the body of water.

It doesn't sound like it's meant to be used in very deep water, since it's intended for cutting through wood:

> The Stanley line of underwater chain saws are designed for cutting all types of wood structures including bridge pilings, pier and dock timbers. All chain saw models include an interlocking safety trigger with hand guard and stainless steel spool and fasteners.

There's a photo of it being used, but it's very unclear what's happening: https://www.stanleyinfrastructure.com/sites/default/files/pr...

Industrial work underwater is commonly done in weighted, metal booted diving suits you stand and walk in, rather than finned frog man type suits.

Former chainsaw operater speaking. I cant imagine easily using a chainsaw underwater for the every action has an equal and opposite reaction thing. However, I notice that the front spikes on the saw are noticably big. When these are dug into the timber, they offer a fulcrum using which the operator can apply force onto the timber. This could lessen though not negate the issue.

I gave up chainsawing the day I accidentally sawed through my boots. Just that morning I had put on a pair of steel toecap boots for the first time. Saved my toes.

It’s not just dimensionally equivalent. It is precisely that: area x pressure difference = work, take the time derivative and you get power.

Doom 3 had a great journal entry to discover: "We requisitioned a crate of jackhammers, and the idiots sent chainsaws! What use is a chainsaw on Mars?"

> I noticed it was hydraulic powered but didn't suspect it was for use under water

I suspect a gasoline-powered chainsaw wouldn't work underwater... which made me wonder if maybe that does exist because you could feed it O2 from a supply tank just like the fuel, maybe even from the diver's own air tank?

Now I want to know how bouyant battery-packs are and if an impractically-heavy battery-powered chainsaw work well underwater?

it's not all that easy to generate high quality/consistent high pressure hydraulic pressure quietly either, though.

the early big-dog robots demonstrated that famously.

The chainsaw might be lighter…but the equipment powering it isn’t.

I think there's a massive portability difference, plus managing the hoses is a safety issue. I have an electric chainsaw, and always have to keep an eye on where the power cord is.

I've seen what happens when a hydraulic line gets cut in an industrial plant.

Your intuition was spot on! I used to cut concrete for a living, and we had several hydraulic chainsaws. The torque on those things was incredible. They were quieter than gas chainsaws, even factoring in the diesel-powered hydraulic pump in the trailer nearby. The main drawback, as other commenters mentioned, was portability. The saw itself was shockingly light (which made the torque that much more surprising) and portable - until you ran out of hydraulic line! Plus you always had to watch your lines to make sure they weren't going to get cut by a blade, pinched under a falling piece of concrete, or crushed under some piece of mechanized equipment. Interestingly, there were three lines - hydraulic in, hydraulic out, and a water hose to spray on the cutting surface and keep the dust down. It's been a decade since I worked that job, but I still clearly remember the feeling of revving one of those things up, watching the water fly everywhere, and grinning as I just carved straight into a solid concrete wall - rebar and everything. It was a delight.

Forestry harvesting equipment (those all-terrain vehicles with long booms) uses hydraulic chainsaws for the felling step. Of course then the hydraulic pump is on the massive vehicle so portable in that way.