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Comment by krab | Hacker News Reader

> Hidden fees are fees in which a seller uses an artificially low headline price to attract a customer and usually either discloses additional required fees in smaller print, or reveals additional unavoidable charges later in the buying process.

Like tips?

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At least tips are expected. It's the 5% "employee support fee" that annoys me because it's a hidden fee, and it's not clear how it relates to tips.

It's related to tips in that, I'm gonna deduct it from the tip if they pull that on me.

Never heard of that, sounds funny. :-)

There's a restaurant I've given up on for one of those fees. It's not on their PDF menus at all, nor the HTML ones. Just a nice little surprise when you go there. Fuck you. Pay your employees out of my bill, or go out of business, but don't tell me I owe 4% more for "kitchen support".

Much like restaurants that want to charge the customer for credit-card fees. Oh, you want to do that? I'll show you why restaurants were among the first to adopt credit payments even with merchant fees: because when you pay cash, some employees steal. And they steal a lot.

The card costs them money to process, so they tack on approximately that amount. And you can opt out by paying cash. Seems fair, though maybe the card price should be default.

Cash is also preferred in food service, because it's easier to cheat on taxes. When you're paid a tip in cash, with no paper trail of what that amount was, the reported earnings on the tax form is merely a suggestion to tell the truth.

My favorite local restaurant has a 3% card surcharge and a 10% cash discount, so like, 14.4% card surcharge. Yeah, probably for tax reasons. (This isn't why they're my favorite, their food is just really good.)

Cash costs money to process, too. I want the manager to have to run to the bank several times a day to get fresh change and deposit cash, tearing out their hair from frustration, for imposing such an annoying requirement.

Oh that cash isn't going to the bank, at least not all of it.

No, no, definitely not. I'm talking about the parts they can't hide as easily.

The hidden fee that I hope this deals with is the mandatory "resort fee" that is showing up more and more frequently on hotel bills. You find an online room rate for $120, go to book it, and it is $120 + $50 resort fee + taxes, and it ends up being > $200.

Hotels are the perfect example where they can show you a final price, as the tax paid is the local price, not the one where you reside.

We can make the argument that it is hard for Amazon to show you the price of widget X, as it changes where it gets shipped.

But for a hotel it doesn't matter whether you fly in from Alaska (no sales tax) or Los Angeles (9.25% I believe)

You pay the rate of the state and city where the hotel is at.

No, not like tips.

Expected tips are known up front, they are variable, and I certainly think it's totally fine to not tip in places where it's not usually expected, "flipping around the iPad" be damned.

It's not true that tips are known up front. E.g. when you're travelling, you don't know. And taxes are (can be) also known up front. But that's the point - avoid the guesswork and let me know what you expect me to pay.

Tips are completely discretionary. You are always free to tip zero. That may make you an asshole depending on local customs but I’m not aware of any place on earth where not leaving a tip will get you in legal trouble. Not paying a last minute hidden fee might.

And sales tax, CA “paint disposal fees”, CA bottle fees, and all the other crap CA (and municipalities) tack onto their bills?

My cable/fiber bill is chock full of fees — many apparently imposed by the city, county, and state.

Some, such as Verizon's Telco Recovery Charge, are completely made up by the provider! How that isn't just fraud is beyond me.

There's a class action suit forming against Verizon for that practice. https://www.hattislaw.com/cases/verizon-wireless-bogus-fees/

That's how predatory gotcha capitalism works.

I guess tips are technically not 'unavoidable'.

Yes, I understand. But if you want to come to the same restaurant again and you don't tip, it may be a problem. Imagine Amazon not wanting to do business with you because you didn't add extra X% to your previous purchase.

That's the restaurant's problem not mine.

Clearly you haven't learned the lesson of not fucking with those who make your food.

if the place is that bad I wouldn't want to go back anyway.

> Like tips?

This is a good point. When I go to a coffee shop and order a latte I am buying a latte and the appreciation of the person that makes it. If they think I’m a dick it renders my coffee undrinkable and the comfort in knowing that I’m liked should be free.

See, that's the problem, people are worried that if they don't tip that employee is going to do something to their food. That's absolutely disgusting. Maybe I should piss on the dollar before I give it to them?

The thrill of dining at places with suspect food safety is hard to match! We should ask the government to step in and ban the thing that is in my mind keeping everyone from pissing in my soup so that we can all share in the rush of severe food anxiety.

No, mpre like the "service fees" or "healthcare/inflation surcharges" that some restaurants have started tacking on pre-tip

Not only is tipping not mandatory, it’s not hidden either. You know that every restaurant will want a tip, there’s no surprise factor.

Tipping is optional.

Would you call a tip unavoidable?

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