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Comment by Retric | Hacker News Reader

Meanwhile your license plate is captured on camera. This is identical to someone hitting pay inside then driving off.

Edit: Looks like pump then pay is more regional than I assumed. Yes it’s still a thing in some parts of the US in 2023.

The interesting question is how often they notice, and whether the pump keeps logs. Because not everybody is stupid enough to invite their entire neighborhood to a free-for-all.

Just drive up, unlock pump, fill up, lock pump, leave.

I would not be surprised if the pump doesn't have a time-stamped log of Bluetooth service function calls. And even if it does, how long can you run this scam before they notice missing inventory from their underground tanks? How long do they keep CCTV footage?

They could correlate by absence of a matching receipt.

Strip out every timestamp correlated with a sale.

Strip out no object at a pump.

Scan through the remainder.

You're talking about running image detection on the video footage and correlate with payment system receipts?

You could probably hack that together in python in 15 minutes, but I doubt there's commercial software offering that functionality. Which means nobody (outside a digital forensics firm) is doing that, and certainly not for $60 worth of gas.

And still, that requires the station even noticing missing inventory. I really wonder how long people have been using that hack, you'd probably check for leaks in the underground tank before checking whether your pumps have been compromised...

>You're talking about running image detection on the video footage and correlate with payment system receipts?

Or, do what has been done since the beginning of video recordings used in investigations...have a human sit in front of the screen scanning the footage.

You are potentially paying a human to watch mutple days of video footage to detect $60 of gas. Even at minimum wage, that could be a loss.

And then you find out the car was a white Toyota corolla and it's missing a number plate, now what?

You're advocating paying a dev at a significantly much higher hourly rate to develop something that will find Ryan Gosling stole the gas from Santa's sleigh with a pattern of snakes painted on it. Now what?

If you can make such a program in 1 week there are plenty of franchises willing to pay for it. It doesn't have to be very good, even if 50% of what you show is a false positive and you only catch 20% of all crimes you say that is still more than enough for a human to look through everything you flag and get the police involved. While it probably directly costs more than eating the loss from these crimes, you only need to catch a few cases to be worth it.

Like most crimes, that seems like a lot of assumptions to risk a felony charge

It’s possible that, like a lot of criminals, the decision to proceed was not based on a complete and well-formed risk analysis.

of course, but I'm responding to a risk analysis

> Meanwhile your license plate is captured on camera

If the thieves are going to such lengths as to hack the pumps, they're likely taking the 60 seconds necessary to tape over their license plate.

This is an extreme premeditated attack, not someone running off with gas on a whim.

Hell, if you're doing it all with Bluetooth anyways, get one of those electronic license plate cover devices that have become a plague with all of the worst drivers in every town who try and avoid tolls and red light cameras...

Holy shit, you weren't joking. Search Scamazon for "license plate flipper"

https://www.amazon.com/Universal-Electric-Rust-Proof-Weather...

Verified Purchaser: "I like that I don't have to pay for tolls"

That sounds expensive/complicated compared to the ubiquitous paper plate.

How Texas Paper Tags Became a $200M Criminal Enterprise: https://www.nbcdfw.com/investigations/how-texas-paper-tags-b...

My memory is that pay inside was a forced prepay option? My entire adult driving time has been after the advent of card readers being on basically every gas pump so I'm going off vague childhood memories of going in to pay for my parents.

Depends on the station but pump then pay is still a thing, but seems to be regional as this post from 2023 shows.

https://www.cleverdude.com/content/4-things-you-need-to-know...

Pump then pay is the default in the UK, but card readers on pumps are becoming more common.

And in most places, what they lose on fuel theft, they more than make up on sales in the petrol station shop which is where they really make their money, so they have little incentive to change.

When I still had a motorcycle (early 2000s), I'd find a lot of rural stations didn't have modern tech on the pumps, and there were a lot of stations that still allowed pump-then-pay.

Some stations just have shitty tech. A station near me fails open if you initiate a credit card transaction, take the pump off the hook, and then abort the transaction.

Last week I had some idle time, and I was looking up whether they sold multi-color e-ink displays in a 6"x12" size.

My state doesn't even emboss plates anymore. If I did mount one and kept my real tag number on it, could anyone even tell? I'm boring as shit, so I don't know why I'd have a James Bond gadget on my car...

> Looks like pump then pay is more regional than I assumed. Yes it’s still a thing in some parts of the US in 2023.

I haven't seen this in forever. Even the shitty little gas stations where I grew up, I thought those were all upgraded ages ago. The EPA tends to frown on tanks that have been in the ground a long time, and since that's the biggest cost, they tend to get the electronics upgraded too so that it's pay at the pump. No idea why anyone with cash wouldn't be forced to pay first.

There was a post on here where some one mentioned a lot of people just install bike racks to block the plate and said Amazon sells lots of plate hiding stuff. I'd definitely seen plastic covers that obviously made the plate very hard to read in the wild but I'd never really thought about using different kinds of luggage racks to obscure plates.

Of course, my state used a bunch of bad paint on license plates for a number of years so you could just peel off all the paint removing any contrast from a legit plate and you'd look no different than most people's unreadable plates anyway.

Which is all well and good until someone aims a camera to capture the VIN number near your drivers side dash.

That’s the thing it’s easy to say something is a perfect crime, it’s harder to prove.

Except that hitting "Pay Inside" probably activates the "get high res photos" function because that's a known fraud profile. If the pump is tricked into giving gasoline for free how long does it take for the gas station employee(s) to notice something went wrong?

Interesting - in Canada, if you want to "Pay Inside", you have to go in and actually pay - they authorize the maximum transaction, and it unlocks the pump and sets it to a maximum amount. If you pump less than that amount, you pay only for what you use. But, OTOH - Canada seems a bit ahead of the US when it comes to Interac/debit-card transactions in general (... but also a little "behind" Europe and AU/NZ...)

A lot of places in the US are either pay by credit card at the pump or pre-pay inside only. I've also seen where "pay inside after" only works if you leave your driver's license with the attendant inside before the pump is activated.

Huh, interesting.. the usual default in most of Europe is pump then pay, with nothing required beforehand, they have your license plate on video anyway?

It used to be like this in the US too. Now we have “upgraded customer interactive digital displays” that stream ads, TikTok, “cheddar news” , and propaganda into your brain while you pump and I haven’t seen a pump then pay in some years.

Side note: If you're at a pump with those stupid TV things, try and hit...right side, second button from the top. This usually activates mute. Some people go to the effort of putting little stickers indicating where the mute button is. Other times you can tell which one it is if the button is heavily scuffed. If that button doesn't work, just try pressing each of the other ones on there. In my own experience, it doesn't hurt to try. I think one time the left side, bottom button worked too.

Whatever the case, I find those infernal things to not only be obnoxious, but a potential safety risk. I mean, you have a customer literally in the process of handling large quantities of dangerous, liquid flammable material which emits fumes that can be ignited by a spark, with potentially inadequate controls in place to stop it killing people. So, let's distract them with shrill, unwanted blather-boxes showing distracting imagery. I make a point of trying to avoid gas stations that have those stupid things installed precisely for that reason - I don't trust that location to put my safety above them making $.0002 from some shady ad network.

I just can't stand that there is such a concerted effort for this war on silence. Just give me a few minutes of simple contemplation.

Just a personal anecdote, but miss-timing your button-press sometimes results in a car-wash being added to your pump charge.

I was trying to hit skip or cancel or something (this was in the Before Times, barely remember what it was asking) and what was the skip button became the "Yes, I'd like a car wash" button as the next ad started. I always suspected this was a bit of Dark UI level trickery, but could also have just been unfortunate button selection between two separate ads.

Since then, I just avoid those buttons when ads are playing lest they get me again!

It would be better to put some tape over the speaker grille to cut the volume by a good amount, since it would help the next person and generally improve the place. Hostile defaults and having to repeatedly do some action to "opt out" means the shitheads essentially still win modulo an illusion of choice, like so many modern dynamics.

While I fully support this if user hostile then hostile user idea, I remembering hearing stories about people putting Biden stickers on pumps getting charged with crimes. Apparently any sticker or even magnet could be argued to be an attempt at changing its pumping mechanism. So maybe just be discrete.

There's always the possibility of malicious arrest/charging/prosecuting when bucking the authoritarian order of just accepting that it's proper and just for shit to be rolled downhill. Funny how there's never any charges against hostile pump owners for assault, disturbing the peace, possible stalking [0], etc. The answer is to be aware of the vanishingly small possible downside, do it regardless, and then be personable to mitigate the damage if you do end up drawing aggro.

(Not that anti or pro Biden stickers terribly upset that status quo. The problem is having upset the wrong person with a modicum of power)

[0] If the nuisance pump is tied into the commercial surveillance databases for choosing what content to blast. I've no idea if we're there yet.

I recently learned that you can mute some of these! I've had success with the top right or second from the top on the right button near the screen. No reason not to try them all if you're a captive audience anyway...

I spam all the buttons on any pump to attempt to mute it, and like you have had success with top right, or second from top on the right having the highest success. In my area, I'm only about 1/4 in being able to mute it, but when it works, usually top right.

I wonder if I could just get a powerful electromagnet and use it to rip the coil out of the speaker. Would be a benefit to society.

You can't buy a toothbrush without calling a attendant where I live, no way they let you pump $100 of gas without paying first. Pay after was the norm when I was a kid though.

Unattended/night stations still work like this: you pre-authorize your card then pump to get charged.

Most rural areas away from interstate highways can still pay after you've pumped, without needing to leave your license or anything else.

>in Canada, if you want to "Pay Inside", you have to go in and actually pay - they authorize the maximum transaction, and it unlocks the pump and sets it to a maximum amount.

I'm in a good-sized city, and every gas station I've been to lets you pay inside after filling up. The only ones that require pre-pay (either by going inside as you described, paying for a max amount, or by CC) are the farthest pumps away from the store.

this is insane to me. I have not been to a single station in the continental united states in the last 7 years where "pay inside" does not equate to "pay first"

That being said - perhaps its an "attendant" state? Several states have laws which restrict motorists from pumping their own gas, is this the scenario which you are talking to?

edit: grammar

Laws saying you can't pump your own gas? Having to prepay inside? Wow, I'm flabbergasted, and it's a bit funny you're thinking it's insane the other way around. I guess it's what you're used to.

When tanking before paying, I also used to get into the car and move it so that someone else could fill while I was inside(it would start a new transaction when you put the nossle back), probably to you look like a dash from the bill. Then walk inside saying "hundred and fifty something on pump 3 is mine".

But I haven't seen a pump not accepting card in what, 20 years, here? So haven't used anything else for ages (and now got an electric car anyways)

I'm in Canada, not the US. But no, no attendant.

You fill up for $X, then walk into the store and say "I filled up on pump 3", then you pay.

thank you! This pattern essentially disappeared from the US with the exception of perhaps the very smallest and remote locations (public accessible) seemingly since the late 1990s (I do remember this pattern as you have described, just not in the last 20years)

> Several states have laws which restrict motorists from pumping their own gas

Just one now. Oregon just starting allowing it last month so New Jersey is the only one left.

I'm in Canada and I have never seen a pump or gas station in the last 10+ years that allow you to pay after filling up. I had thought all the stations have changed since incidents like this: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/attendant-drag...

Perhaps only BC made the switch? Not sure. But I filled up this morning and paid after the fact at PetroCan, so it's definitely not a Canada-wide thing.

One in Yahk, BC let me pay after filling up last week. In fact, that was the only option there.

That was normal in Texas ~15-20yrs ago. But in the intervening time, I've seen that become less common. I've run into places that won't let you pay after and will instead just ask you to prepay (full transaction) and come back in to get the difference refunded.

But I've also ran into plenty of places that if you hit "pay inside" on the pump will simply just turn the pump on, or will call you via the pump intercom (is that common everywhere?) and tell you they're turning the pump on for a max of XX gallons and to prepay or use the card at the pump if that's not enough.

The pump intercom is done because then you know someone inside actually saw you and is expecting you. If you drive off without paying they are much more likely to notice and call the police in time for the police to catch you. Or at least that is what they want you to think.

Yeah, I figured the intercom call was to get you thinking that they're watching closely, even though they're usually too busy with other customers to really be watching someone on the chance they drive off.

It’s more efficient to pay after you’ve completely filled your tank. I guess there is a trust issue, which is why it isn’t common in the US anymore.

Nope! It's actually because there's a financial standard transaction flow for things like pumps!

-Confirm account: super small test move to confirm liveness of endpoint

-Place hold: (locks $⁷5 worth of funds attached to an account) Finalize transaction

-Finalize transaction for final amount

-Release hold

This is actually a really troublesome thing for people who have trouble keeping their account balances positive, because you can end up locking them out of further financial activity until the hold is expired/released.

It's one of those things you don't really think about but are all over the place, and are a big part of making the world turn the way it does.

Similar problem for people this close to the financial edge: saying "I want exactly $23.46 worth of gas" because thats all the cash they have, a penny more wouldn't fly. Much easier and safer to ask the attendant to preload the pump with that amount and run it down to zero than to try and get as close as you can with the trigger without going over.

This comment is kind of confusing; maybe others have had a different experience, but I live in the Midwest and what you're speaking of has been the norm for like the last decade. I've been driving for 13+ years and don't have any memories of being able to pump gas without first paying at the pump, or paying inside and my pump automatically stopping at the amount I paid for.

I starting driving in 1990 - back then there was no pay at the pump so the norm everywhere was to pump gas then go inside and wait in line to pay. You knew you were in a bad neighborhood if you had to pay for your gas before you pumped it (you probably already knew you were in a bad neighborhood, but this confirmed it). About 15 years ago stations started to realize that nearly everyone was paying at the pump even if they were going to come inside for something else - which made it much more likely anyone not paying at the pump was trying to steel gasoline and so they went to pay first as few were inconvenienced.

I do not miss at all standing in line behind someone who couldn't figure out which lottery ticket they wanted to buy.

As an American living in Canada: that’s exactly how it works on both sides of the border.

Presumably they find out within a week when they reorder gas and the filling truck has to fill substantially more than expected.

They probably start investigating for a fuel leak, pull the data from all the pumps, and then realise the number of gallons pumped and the number of gallons paid for don't match up, and then check the CCTV.

Depends really. Most businesses will assume some amount of shrinkage. If you fly beneath the radar eg only hit the station once a month or every other month. You might get away with it.

> Most businesses will assume some amount of shrinkage

in the gas trade, they use the term "evaporation" ;P

Completely agree.

Also, volume is huge.

If a gas station averages 1 car at all times across a month, you’re talking 400,000+ gal. Even just 1 hour of pumping each day is 18,000 gal.

Are they really going to bother if one person swipes 20 gal a month?

Not to mention the margin of error. Do fuel delivery quantities really exactly align with sold gas, to within a gallon or so? Or is there natural variation from each transaction being +/- $0.01, plus evaporation, plus any other rounding/physics considerations?

Here in NL it's 'pay inside' or 'pump then pay' by default unless you're in a border region where there are a lot of scammers. And judging by some recent foreign trips pretty much the same happens in other countries in the North of Europe.

Yea it’s less automated but this bit: “when the clerks inside try to stop it - they can’t.” suggests it’s very obvious.

In my state they sure as heck don't let you pay after pumping! That's only really a thing in small towns

Same man. I don't know of a single pump within 40 miles of me that even has a card reader. It's all pump-then-pay.

Around here I've been noticing an alarming number of vehicles being driven around with deeply expired tabs, dubious bits of paper tacked in the license plate area, or frequently no plates at all ever since the pandemic. Depending on where you live this just might not be enforced very much at the moment.

>>Edit: Looks like pump then pay is more regional than I assumed.

The only place I have ever seen the requirement to pay first was in some tourist resorts in Spain, I guess to prevent theft. Weirdest thing ever, it's like....lady I have no idea how much fuel this rental car will take, how can I possibly prepay you.

All the credit cards have a reserved amount they can pre-allocate so that once the final bill is due, you're required to pay at most X dollars (the max that you chose at the pump). It's fraud proof. Like it or not, it'll likely be deployed everywhere eventually because it should be able to cut down on fraudulent purchases significantly.

....is it common that people fill up and drive away without paying where you live? I have literally never heard of that happening, ever - I guess if you tried you wouldn't get very far, police would be called and they'd find you quickly with the reg plate.

What do you mean by common. The vast majority of people do not do this every. However even in the best areas someone will do it (I'm guessing a few times per month). In really bad areas it happens several times per hour. Generally the police are good at finding who did it when this happens, but only if the station notices in the first place - they don't always.

>I have literally never heard of that happening, ever

How would you hear about it? Unless you're friends with a gas station owner/employee, how would you know? The amount is small enough that it'll never show up in local media, just like the local teenager shoplifting wouldn't show up on local media.

It's not exactly difficult to obfuscate a license plate for the few minutes needed to fill up.

In Alberta, it's required by law to pay before you pump. This happened after an attendant was killed during a gas-and-dash robbery.

> Meanwhile your license plate is captured on camera

Depends on if local police and district attorneys actually acts on it

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