Hacker News Reader

Comment by coev | Hacker News Reader

It's $80 per person each way for a ticket from west palm beach station to orlando. That's $160 roundtrip. Even for one person, it can be cheaper to rent a car and pay the gas/turnpike tolls than to buy one roundtrip ticket, and you won't be stranded 20 minutes away from downtown and the tourist attractions over at MCO airport.

View on HN

This seems like a very similar (and big) problem to Europe. Trains are just so expensive. UK it is unreal, I'm pretty sure some days you can fly from London to edinburgh for 1/10th, on a bad day 1/5th of the cost of trains. It just doesn't seem worth it. Clearly something about the economics of trains just doesn't work, especially when compared to mid-distance trips where cheap airlines also exist.

I came here expecting to see that the "free market zero regulation" of the US, and business sense would mean quite a cheap fare for this train, but no, it's just as bad as europe.

Even though they are supposedly the ultimate green mass public transportation, trains really need to get cheaper to be a serious alternative for cars and cheap airlines, as you also point out.

You pay more money but the experience is different. You can do many things in a train that you can't do in a car like:

- working

- having a meal (and by that I don't mean eating a sandwitch or crisps)

- have a conversation that involve eye contacts

- playing board/card games

- watching a movie

- reading

All of these activities are impossible for a car driver and would make most passenger feeling sick or spreading food everywhere in the car.

So it is not like an apple to apple comparison. The added cost is hardly justified for a short 1h30 drive, but the longer the trip the more it makes a difference.

The UK is an outlier for train ticket prices. There's a huge difference between booking an inflexible ticket in advance, and buying a ticket on the day.

Elsewhere in Europe there's usually less difference. Here in Denmark the cheapest Copenhagen-Århus ticket booked in advance is around £15, and the standard ticket (any time) is £50. London to Manchester is a similar distance, and the price varies from around £20 (supposedly) to £185.

Hmm... I expected the cheapest ticket in England to be less than the cheapest in Denmark.

(Denmark isn't big enough for an equivalent journey to London-Edinburgh, but Sweden is. I notice the Malmö-Stockholm route is so busy the direct trains are mostly fully booked for several days ahead — Britain does have more capacity in return for the expensive fares.)

One contribution is that jet fuel is not taxed in the EU.

>Trains are just so expensive. UK it is unreal

Yet still jam packed with people

With current prices this could be a bit of a stretch. A 2 day rental from MIA with Enterprise is $140 for a compact (just checked). I’m sure you can find cheaper but probably no by much. So you are close to $160 all-in with gas and tolls.

You can do a fair amount better that that on price with a major rental company, but it still might make sense to use the train if you are solo. But if you are a duo or trio, the train pricing starts to lose big.

https://i.imgur.com/uSHiZdS.png

If you are willing to risk using one of the lower tier car rental companies, you can really cut the price.

https://i.imgur.com/iOHxxw3.png

By the time you're done paying for insurance, the nickel and diming on the rental, the tolls, and the physical toll of driving long stretches in a country you are not familiar with, it starts to sound like a better option to take a stress-free train ride and then a Lyft to your destination.

Well, last time I booked a car last minute (from one of the big ones, I think it was Enterprise), they confirmed my confirmation but didn't have any car available when I showed up the next day. I'd imagine the train is somewhat more reliable.

Problem is then you're depending on a rental, which your (alleged) reservation doesn't actually guarantee.

You always depend on the business to provide the service reserved whether it is plane, train or automobile. I'd worry more about the flight into/out of MIA than the car rental.

Rental car agencies oversell far more than is typical of most industries, including the airlines.

Airlines, hotels, car rental agencies all overbook as a matter of course. You assert that car rentals are worse than airlines. But you cite no numbers, no sources, so... Maybe?

Not sure it is even the best comparison since we are talking reliability. Airlines manage overbooking very well, but flights delays and cancellations are the reliability issue.

You can rent a Tesla from Hertz for $40-50 per day, and they are currently including the Supercharger fees (at least I didn't get charged for it the last two times I took one).

How are airplanes so cheap ? Airplane fuel is expensive, it takes a larger crew to operate and the planes are more expensive too. Who foots the bill for operating expensive airports ?

Are trains mor expensive purely because regulation costs and operating expenses are passed down in entirety to the customer ?

> Airplane fuel is expensive

No more so than diesel for a locomotive. The formulation is pretty similar. Then, consider that the energy requirements for trains and planes aren't radically different (for long-distance travel). Airplanes fly though the thin air of the stratosphere, while trains try to bore a hole through the thick air near the ground.

> it takes a larger crew to operate

Not really. The person-hours of labor (for the on-board crew) required to operate a segment between two city pairs is usually less for a plane because it spends less time in transit.

In both cases, the crew is unionized and commands high pay and benefits.

In both cases, a centralized dispatcher is required, usually certified.

In both cases, some staff are needed to run the stations and on/off-load baggage and cargo. In both cases, one group of such staff can be "rotated" through the many arrivals/departures that happen throughout the day.

> and the planes are more expensive too

[Citation needed]

This page implies a Siemens Charger (the type of locomotive used by Brightline) costs ~$11m per unit: https://www.businessinsider.com/amtraks-new-diesel-electric-...

While this page implies that a Siemens Venture (the type used by Brightline) costs ~$80m per trainset: https://www.theurbanist.org/2021/07/08/amtrak-cuts-deal-with...

Each train requires 2x locomotives and one set of cars, for a total cost of ~$100m.

A 737 also costs ~$100m new: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/much-does-boeing-737-cost-142...

The Venture set carries about 250 pax, while the 737 carries about 180. But the 737 can complete more trips in a given amount of time compared to a train.

> Who foots the bill for operating expensive airports ?

Generally the people who use it, via ticket prices. O'hare airport is a major profit center for the city of Chicago (check out the city's border--that little nub on the west side is the airport).

> Are trains mor[e] expensive purely because regulation costs and operating expenses are passed down in entirety to the customer ?

It's mostly a combination of:

1. Higher labor costs (because a train takes longer, and the crew requirements are similar).

2. Needing to build and maintain a continuous right of way for hundreds of miles.

3. Less efficient use of capital because the same amount of equipment can make fewer trips in a given amount of time.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com