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Comment by 4gotunameagain | Hacker News Reader

I'd rather be unemployed and live off charity kitchen soups than engage in these juvenile games.

As a society we need to find a way to stop rewarding slyness and trickery (aka marketing)

I’m with you my friend. I’d rather go back to be employed and post helpful stuff to my blog, than try to promote my products using click bait tactics on social media.

It’s funny, but when you post an obvious click bait to Reddit/hn everybody is like “this is clickbait, the author is trying to sell you his coaching”, etc.

But then, when you say you don’t want to participate in algorithm hunger games, everyone is like “no, you won’t succeed. You need to shove your products down the throat if your readers”. :puke:

Here is a good example. About 2.5 months ago, I’ve shared a blog post I wrote, here on HN [1].

The blog post was authentic with a simple purpose: (1) I like to write, and (2) I believed writing is beneficial to everyone. I share all my blog posts here, none of them performed as well as this one (check my profile if you want).

Seeing the success and the traffic this post generated, I crafted a quick form to offer FREE coaching session. Free as Linux free. I gave 2.5 hours of my time for free. In exchange, I asked my mentees for testimonials. A fair transaction I guess. It’s a great way to build my brand.

I put a small, non intrusive banner on my blog, with a message of free coaching session (the same banner now promotes my book). It’s not a pop up that jumps when you scroll to the bottom, it’s not a JavaScript scripts that pops up when you close the tab. It’s a ~30px, non sticky bar at the top, the goes away with a little scroll.

Top comment on HN? My post is cringy and I’m yet another “coaching bro” that promotes his stuff. :shrug:

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36659166

So what? You need to grow a thicker skin

Building an audience and selling a product is in large part about rejection. You will get tons of comments like that. Haters are going to hate, no matter what you do

Yes, it hurts, but just keep going. If the top comment represented everyone’s sentiment, your post wouldn’t have gotten 200+ upvotes (congrats by the way, not an easy feat)

I don’t complain, don’t get me wrong.

I just point out the absurdity of this gladiator games that everyone seems to enjoy too much.

I don’t get offended by negative comments, as long as they are constructive, I see them as bliss.

Maybe instead of advertising as free coaching, choose words that will appeal to your target audience. In your case, instead of saying free, use libre or explicitly say free as in freedom. You have to understand that many people see "free coaching" and are immediatly put into anti scam mode.

See, that’s the problem. When I say I don’t play algorithm games, people tell me I’m stupid and won’t succeed. When I promote my services, people tell me I use the wrong words.

It’s an endless game. I don’t complain, I just point out the absurdity of this gladiator games that everyone enjoys.

>I'd rather be unemployed and live off charity kitchen soups than engage in these juvenile games.

What if you replaced the word marketing with attention?

Would you rather live of soup kitchens than have the attention of your ideal customers?

> What if you replaced the word marketing with attention?

Then you would be making a different argument. Marketing and attention are not the same thing: the former is one means to the latter. Marketing is grabbing attention by force, which could be considered unethical; attention by itself can be consensual and organic.

This conflates the ends and the means. They're different and both deserve consideration.

Some reading:

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_end_justifies_the_mean...

https://saylordotorg.github.io/text_the-business-ethics-work...

The competition of legal entities for our attention seems to be one of the major reasons of chronic stress and mental illness in the west, so the answer is yes.

It’s not juvenile games, it’s hard work. If it was easy games everyone would be raking it in

If anything, the juvenile thing to do is to look at reality the way it is and deny it because it doesn’t fit our personal world view

I get it, we’d love a world in which we could just do our best work and everyone could see it and recognize it

But reality is that people are thinking about themselves and are not searching for what we are building. How would they ever find out about what we do if we are not telling them?

You have a serious misunderstanding of what marketing is if you think it’s slyness and trickery

Of course I’m not going to convince you otherwise, but I think it might help you to actually do research, read a marketing book and talk to people in marketing to understand what it really is

Nobody said that juvenile games cannot be hard work. And yes, I do believe that most smart people can "rake it in" if they decide to play this game.

You mention deny reality. Reality is formed by our actions. Adherence to such systems and the playing of juvenile games ensures their perpetuation. I shall not contribute to what I think is the wrong way to go.

And yes, marketing is slyness and trickery. 95% of marketing is A/B ad and layout testing. Or shall we consider the great, historical marketing successes such as promoting cigarettes as healthy, or breakfast cereal ?

At this point you are either just trolling or being a hypocrite

There isn’t a single organization that doesn’t do marketing one way or another (just putting a sign outside a restaurant is marketing, maybe you also consider that to be tricking people and playing games?)

Pretty sure that without marketing you would either not have a job or not get paid

So you are actually fine with marketing making you money, just as long as you are not the one doing it. Sounds like denying reality

Btw, marketing != advertising, and 95% of people don’t even have the time, budget or large enough audience to do any kind of A/B testing

I obviously do not include things like putting a sign outside a restaurant or sponsoring an FSAE team in the same category as being shallow and silly in linkedin or shipping predatory ads to phones.

You obviously cannot see the distinction, so why bother replying ?

  Pretty sure that without marketing you would either not have a job or not get paid

Oh and, the work I'm doing (aerospace engineering) does not require predatory marketing. It requires results. No need to hype some new tech on twitter and show how I follow the trends.

I want to think of marketing as a way of providing valuable content and explaining why your product might be just what the consumer needs (potentially helping them with their problems).

What's described above really doesn't fit into this view, but is definitely how I've seen people "play the game". ChatGPT-generated fluff, copied content, and the same tips & tricks, inspirational stories, etc. you see repurposed all the time on different platforms - especially LinkedIn.

I hope marketing can be good and value-adding but, the way it's going right now, we're due for a change.

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