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Comment by hedora | Hacker News Reader

I'd like to point out that, although it is illegal to put lead in water supply lines in the US, there is a loophole that allows it in hot water lines.

As a result, for certain fittings, most big-box hardware stores only sell the leaded variants, and label them "hot water heater supply line" or something similar.

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There’s another loophole: “lead free” means that the wetted surface is no more than 0.25% lead (by mass, I think).

As far as I know, lead has nice properties as an element added to brass alloys. Which is not an excuse for using it, IMO.

(Why is any of this still a thing? Stainless steel is cheaper than copper these days, and it’s a great material as long as you aren’t trying to screw one piece of stainless steel into another, and there isn’t a great reason why one should need to do much of that. And there are some excellent plastics available, too.)

Are there? It seems like plastics are shaping up to be the modern day lead.

Lead roofing tends to get recycled into bullets in time of war, but those roofs that don't, are typically there forever (400+ years) and never leak. Some plastics are UV resistant due to additives but even copper struggles to compete with lead as a roofing material. You only need to look back to the 1970s to find PEX water piping and the disaster/flooding it can cause due to age.

Are you thinking of polybutylene pipe, rather than Pex (cross-linked polyethylene)?

> Lead roofing tends to get recycled into bullets in time of war

That's interesting - I've read that there are a lot of castles and stately houses whose demise started from the owners selling off the lead roof, but I never understood why it would be so valuable that you'd destroy the building for it. Is that why?

Quite a number of British monastic churches and castles had their roofs sold off by Henry VIII, who was fully intending to destroy the building.

Using McMaster-Carr as a benchmark, lead sheet is a bit more expensive than the same size and thickness of 316 stainless sheet. One of these is extremely toxic and the other is pretty much harmless. (Also, 316 stainless won’t magically corrode if there’s condensation on it, and the Internet suggests this is a problem with lead.)

Sure, lead can be molded into place with traditional techniques if you can find a competent roofer with a sufficiently minimal desire for self-preservation. But modern standing seam roofs work pretty well.

Hopefully you don't have a fire....See: Notre Dame

Those don’t seem like comparables though. Lead is just one (or arguably a handful of) compounds, while there are at least dozens of species of plastic.

I highly doubt it. They don't seem to be perfect, but they clearly aren't anywhere near as toxic as lead.

Plastics for potable water tend to be copper lined where I live, not sure what is used elsewhere.

I've never heard of copper-lined PEX, can you tell me more?

I think op may be referring to 'barrier pipe', which is a plastic -copper-plastic sandwich, which is designed to keep out pollutants which can diffuse through the plastic - eg. Diesel oil.

If you don't use it for underground water pipes in cities, you'll normally get complaints from homeowners about 'chemical smelling' water, particularly first thing in the morning when water has been sitting stationary in pipes all night.

oh dear i forgot that plastics are permeable to petrochemicals lile paper is to water

There is a test for plastics where they weigh a block of plastic then soak it in water and weigh it again. For some plastics the gain in weight can be a few percent.

That's like saying "metal is strong". There are huge differences among different plastics.

Well, there are < 100 metals but thousands of varieties of plastic?

Not thousands, certainly not in common use. But yes there are many, and they have very different properties from one another, including permeability.

Barrier PEX (often referred to as PEX-Al-PEX) uses a layer of aluminum, not copper. A far more common type of barrier PEX uses a low-permeability polymer coating.

Oooooohhhh.. That make sense. Today I learned.

I still have a length of it in storage but I don't know the brand by heart. It was pretty expensive stuff and it needed weird fittings, which were also expensive, the inner liner was blue, that much I do recall. In the end I mostly regretted going for plastic, I'd probably use regular copper pipe and crimp fittings again, less hassle and I'm just more familiar with it.

Do you mean PEX-Al-PEX? It’s mostly obsolete now, in favor of “oxygen barrier” PEX. The latter is generally approved for potable use, but there’s no reason to use it. It’s intended for closed-loop heating or cooling systems that contain non-stainless iron alloys, and the idea is that any oxygen initially in the water will be rapidly depleted, and deoxygenated water is not corrosive.

Probably alupex "meerlagenbuis"? Comparing it to copper it seems to be much more affordable per meter. I worked mostly with copper in the past, but did some work with alupex on my brother's house a couple of years ago. It's much more convenient and affordable than copper!

I recently fell in love with copper pipes. So many advantages, so easy to work with. Quick and nearly fool-proof.

I tried introducing some stainless fixtures and did not have a good time with it.

I'm not a pro by any means but I do all of my own plumbing and gas work in my house. Haven't had one issue out of iron gas pipe or copper water lines. I was actually planning a pex install/replacement, and I have worked with it in my camper, but I changed my mind after doing some more work with copper recently (replaced water pressure regulator). Waaaaay cheaper than messing with pex.

People often go to Pex because it's way cheaper than copper. I use copper because the rest of my house supply is copper, soldering pipe is a skill that I have and enjoy using, there's a slight anti-microbial action from copper, and I trust it to last longer than I have years left around. I sure don't do it because it's cheaper, though.

I know some plumbers recommend Pex because it fails catastrophically -- if you run a nail through a pipe you'll know it -- whereas copper can have pinhole leaks which will slowly grow mold all over the inside of your wall without you noticing.

Straight new install of PEX might be cheaper but I can reuse copper fittings and they cost nearly nothing. Same with the runs of pipe...I can reuse copper without losing length. Just easier to deal with for maintenance.

I had a house where a brand new copper line corroded and started leaking 2 years from installation, and I don't mean at joints or anything, I mean the local water just ate right through the wall of the pipe. I switched to Pex and was fairly happy with it.

I never did do the research to figure out what was up with the water, but similarly, when I tried inventing my own sump-pump sensor by dipping copper wire into the sump well, it ate the copper wires apart in 3 days. I tried again with stainless rods and discovered that there was about .05 Volt per inch deep I put the sensor, i.e. the stainless rod near the top of the well would be about 2V higher (or lower, don't recall) than the stainless rod that ran to the bottom. Made it kind of annoying to design the circuit.

Looked in to this seriously for a product some years back. Captured ping pong ball floating on the surface of the water hitting a physical limit switch is the way to go. Otherwise ultrasound.

Convenient point for PEX: If copper pipes aren't properly grounded they'll tend to develop pinhole leaks within that timeframe.

Due to galvanic corrosion / electrolysis?

I'm not a plumber, that's what someone told me once a long time ago. But googling some more, systemic pinhole leakage can also depend on several factors like water cleanliness and pH, with some counties finding grounding doesn't cause pinholing and others finding it does.

The subject may be more complicated than my single sentence can capture.

I assume you have a well, not city water? Utilities generally try to adjust their water to be non-corrosive to copper.

If I used well water or had another non-city source, I would do my best to keep copper out of the plumbing and I would minimize brass as well. Stainless steel and plastic, please.

I assume the copper wire was designed as a simple resistive switch? That will cause electrolysis and corrosion. There's an improved design that involves measuring capacitance, which also uses less power. I have a commercial sump pump monitor that works this way.

Yep, but in the end I was able to switch by monitoring the voltage generated by the water on the stainless rods, using a microcontroller. Worked great for a few years until I moved out. Haven't had a sump pump since. (good riddance)

Stainless and copper do not mix. See galvanic corrosion.

Stainless steel is just fine in a copper system if it’s not electrically connected to the copper. Even if it is, you are unlikely to have problems unless the wetted area of the stainless steel is comparable to or larger than the copper, in which case you may accelerate corrosion of the copper.

You won’t have the problems you would have with galvanized steel. Copper ions leached out of a copper pipe will react with zinc and non-stainless steel and can very quickly degrade under some conditions even without electrical contact. Stainless steel, not so much.

(Don’t let rainwater that came from a copper gutter or that ran over treated wood hit a galvanized steel flashing. Really, just don’t use galvanized steel flashings at all.)

Stainless in (or near) contact with copper with moisture between them forms a battery, which will corrode them.

Metals in a plumbing (i.e. wet) system need to be either isolated from each other or be galvanically compatible.

This applies to roofing, too. Nail the flashing down with galvanically compatible nails, or you'll find the flashing all comes loose after a couple years.

> Stainless in (or near) contact with copper with moisture between them forms a battery, which will corrode them.

Not really?

A battery has two paired half reactions. Something gets oxidized, something gets reduced, and electrons flow through the conductive bits.

So if you have some metallic zinc, and you have some copper ions, and you have some metallic copper, and you have electrical contact, zinc will be oxidized, copper ions will be reduced and plate into the copper, and current will flow. Once the zinc is gone, if you had galvanized steel to start with, the iron will oxidize.

Now try stainless steel. The half-reaction involving the stainless steel, hmm, doesn’t involve iron — the iron is physically separated from the electrolyte by the passive layer. Chromium? Barely - a tiny bit oxidizes and then it stops. We’re left with 2H+ + 2e- -> H2. Which can happen without the stainless steel too, but with more available surface area, it’s faster.

So a lot of stainless steel will accelerate the corrosion of a small amount of copper. But the reverse has little effect.

There is apparently a real concern the with H2: some grades of stainless steel are apparently rather susceptible to hydrogen embrittlement.

I'm not a chemist, but I believe Boeing when they told me never to place copper in contact with stainless, due to galvanic corrosion. Corrosion is the mortal enemy of all airplanes.

You'll also find the same if you google for copper and stainless galvanic compatibility.

I had no idea it was unsafe to drink from green garden hoses until it was pointed out by an RV salesman trying to sell me a white hose for potable water-- in my 20s. I thought he was full of shit, but I was proven wrong.

Hot water lines can't be the only loophole causing lead ingestion.

Interesting, I had no idea (I thought only the fittings would have lead, but it's the hose material):

https://toxicfreefuture.org/press-room/new-study-rates-best-...

Dear mother no why? Why does the Home Depot garden hoose have 6.8% led in it ...

All these small environmental dangers add up. And they are so hard to keep track of. I would never suspect a water hoose to contain led. Let alone 6.8%.

Yep. The best part is: I loved drinking from green hoses as a kid (maybe it explains a lot about me now). Even when the hose was left in the sun, the water always tasted like a cool mountain spring...because lead has a sweet taste to it. I assume this also explains why small children eat leaded paint chips, and dogs love puddles of [unleaded] antifreeze runoff (they say they changed the formula, but it looks and smells inviting to me).

The dangers really are hard to keep track of. It's too easy to blame the consumer (didn't you read the packaging for your new garden hose?). Now the threat is plastics, which requires a materials science degree to understand as a consumer.

For decades, lead compounds have been used as processing stabilizers in PVC, which has spread the shit everywhere. Hoses, electrical cords, and vinyl window blinds have historically been big sources.

Things started changing in the 2000's when companies started seeking compliance with E.U REACH and RoHS regulations. Garden hoses are now largely lead free, as are blinds, but electrical cords have taken longer to switch over.

Damnit. I thought the Proposition 65 warnings on Christmas lights and Ethernet cables were just crying wolf.

> I thought only the fittings would have lead, but it's the hose material

It can be either, depending on context. (Being pedantic here just so nobody comes away thinking it can only be one or the other.)

The guy who pointed it out to me was making a sales pitch for an RV, so the hose he was upselling was for potable water-- the fitting for it on the RV was presumably selected for potability as well. Connecting a white hose to the spigot on your house could mean you're passing dirty water through a safe hose.

To be real anal, with aquaculture you have to screen fittings for other metals too. Exposure to brass will kill pretty much everything in a saltwater tank.

When I moved I did a search not only for garden hose without lead but also without phthalates and BPA. There are a few goodun’s out there. Expensive though, but I also have hose connections that don’t leak because tolerances and decent seals.

In particular I would recommend the ELEY Garden Hose

Eley makes really good (but expensive) stuff. It bugs me that they moved their production overseas though. I could understand if they were selling a $5 sprayer or $15 hose reel. I think they could still make a good profit if their stuff was made back in Nebraska.

Water Right is about a third of the cost. I've left mine out in the sun for three years for one hose, four for the other. The 4 yo one is just started to get a hint of bleaching this year.

Good luck with Water Wright. They come in long runs and aren't very heavy. Occasional problems with inventory, but do you really need the red one?

Hose water is delicious

Why are there so many loopholes in every single US law?

Everytime there’s a major health issue or anything extremely anti consumer it’s because of a loophole in the formulation of a US law.

Are US lawmakers that bad? Or is it judges who interpret laws literally instead of using the intent?

It's much easier and faster to pass a law with loopholes that still removes 90%+ of the bad stuff you want to remove.

If you try to solve 100% of the problem you have the bad stuff on the market for another 10 years while the details are sorted out.

Or you just ignore the details and ram through the bill, and find out about a lot of unintended consequences and have a mess.

Ideally, politicians would pass the bill with loopholes first, and then follow up and try to close them to finish solving the problem. But that's one of those things like refactoring and code cleanup that you always mean to do and never get around to.

It’s money. The answer is money. Somebody makes money by producing lead-infused products, so they pay off lawmakers to add a loophole that allows them to continue making money.

Yet people still maintain the popular fiction that corruption isn't that common in the large western countries, and that it's somehow more prevalent in the east. It's nonsense.

Everywhere there are large governments, there is huge corruption that is literally killing people so that others may be enriched without working as much.

Corruption exists everywhere, but in western countries is a lot less likely that you'll be bribing police, school teachers, medical services, banks etc as an 'individual' to get the services you expect from them. Can you find examples of people bribing those in those positions? Sure, it can and does happen. And on the whole, it's the exception rather than the rule. And definitely not at the scale of other countries.

Big business interests affecting policy for the point of profit is a universal issue though.

A small government wouldn’t magically solve this problem though

>A small government wouldn’t magically solve this problem though

You'd have a lot fewer corrupt officials though.

Well there are so many social issues that suck the oxygen out

Bill Gurley’s recent talk is worth a watch https://youtu.be/F9cO3-MLHOM

That's an excellent talk. Thanks for posting.

Why can antelope still run faster than most cheetahs?

What I mean is that you only see what survives. The thousands of products which used to have lead which don't anymore are gone, out of sight out of mind. The ones which someone forgot, or someone bribed a politician to preserve, or even ones which were created specifically afterwards and which the law had no way to even know about, to ban, are what you see.

Dynamic systems have this property, and it's hard to get permanent dominance since both sides keep adjusting.

People shit on California's Proposition 65, but the notices at Fry's made me aware of the lead content of solder, and the ones at Michael's highlighted the lead in Christmas decorations, lights, and fake trees/garland.

I went most of my life ignorant of all of this. But banning stuff outright seems like it would be counterproductive to either industry (banning soldering would be disruptive) or public image ("Liberals declare war on Christmas!").

(Tangential mention of McDonald's, whose warnings highlighted the acrylamide released in the potato-frying process.)

Lead-free solder exists though. It works fine - particularly for plumbing where you don't have tin-whisker concerns.

The only problem I've ever had with it is (1) that it turns out Bunnings in Australia sells utterly atrocious flux (the good stuff is also non-toxic, potable compatible and made in USA - and it works perfectly) and (2) that people aren't aware enough of the problem (i.e. my parents house has lead solder all through the plumbing where my father didn't know there was a difference and extended it).

EDIT: For any Australians out there - this one - https://www.totaltools.com.au/154135-la-co-56g-soldering-flu... - buy this one. This is the one which works.

Artist here. The UK had/has a ban on all lead white paint. Real bummer. Ti white works in a pinch, but it has dramatically different properties.

If you write laws without an exceptions for exceptional cases, then you get more laws with unintended consequences.

> Or is it judges who interpret laws literally instead of using the intent?

It's hard to interpret intent in a way that is consistent and fair. A ruling that does not go by what is written down is open to be criticized, while a ruling that adheres to the letter is almost never overturned.

Us lawmakers are effectively the employees of the people profiting from skirting these health issues.

> Why are there so many loopholes in every single US law

Bribery of politicians

There are often fairly sensible reasons or good intent behind many of them. People don't normally drink hot water; it's not a great idea, as it has higher levels of dissolved solids and higher risk of contamination by organisms (like legionnaires). Meanwhile, lead helps make metals and solders more resilient to high temperatures and fatigue at low cost. Banning lead from the hot side could therefore decrease reliability and increase cost, for arguably little to no health benefit.

I don't have a vested interest in the lead industry, but it's pretty clearly not simple maleficence.

Basically nothing you said here is true.

People don't normally drink hot water

People drink hot water all the time not to mention cooking, tea, instant coffee and more.

legionnaires

That's from water being stagnant for long periods of time.

lead helps make metals and solders more resilient to high temperatures

Not only is this not true, but water is never going to go above boiling. Propane torches (used for soldering pipes) burns at 1,980C

Banning lead from the hot side could therefore decrease reliability

This is ridiculous. Soldered pipes have been in use for over 70 years. Where are getting this idea?

> People drink hot water all the time not to mention cooking, tea, instant coffee and more.

I always use cold water and then boil it in a kettle. Even in Europe with our copper pipes the heat will dissolve more crap apparently. It's always advised to do this.

> That's from water being stagnant for long periods of time.

Yeah stagnant under optimal bacterial growth temperatures like 30C. And it enters the body through the lungs, from vapors in the shower. Not drinking it doesn't prevent legionnaire disease.

In fact what does prevent it is heating the water significantly, like around 60C. And chlorinating. It's also why the water here in Spain it's almost undrinkable from all the chlorine here in summer. They just have to put that much in it to prevent outdoor pipes growing bacteria. Yet in summer the water is still hot and brown when I open the tap after it's been outside in the pipe all day. I drink a lot of bottled water, lol.

> Not only is this not true, but water is never going to go above boiling. Propane torches (used for soldering pipes) burns at 1,980C

Yeah lead solder actually melts at a much lower temperature. I still use it for that reason because lead free is a bitch to work with. I only solder micro electronics though.

I always use cold water and then boil it in a kettle.

That's great for you. This has nothing to do with how absurd the idea of using lead in 'hot pipes' would be.

Not drinking it doesn't prevent legionnaire disease.

I didn't say anything about drinking, I just said it comes from stagnant water.

I still use it for that reason because lead free is a bitch to work with. I only solder micro electronics though.

Lead free solder is very easy to work with when putting copper pipes together. The torch puts out a lot of heat and you don't have to worry about destroying anything near it (except for wood behind it). I can't imagine all the twisted logic it would take for someone to think using leaded solder in pipes is a good idea.

One time I sweated a joint about 1 foot away from an electrical line running inside a steel conduit. The ambient heat (plus, I guess, whatever load was on the wires) was enough to melt the jacketing and cause a short.

I wash my cups and dishes with hot water, then I drink and eat from them later.

> legionnaires

Actually, this is famously caused by having water that’s not hot enough. It became a problem in some countries when they advised lowering boiler temps to save energy.

I had a stop valve that went bad and I wanted to replace it with a ball-valve because I prefer quarter-turn valves for shutoff valves. No ball-valves at the hardware store were lead free.

just a fair warning that you should close that quarter-turn valve very gradually when there is running water if you ever find a non-leaded version... water hammer can and will burst the weakest of your pipes.

If we're warning about valves, be sure that your gate valves are fully open (or fully closed), otherwise the gate will erode and may erode to the point where it can no longer close.

For those that do not know, Practical Engineering has video on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoLmVFAFjn4

Less of an issue for area shutoff valves (e.g. under-sink) , since most of the time they are used before doing maintenance and there is little flow at the time.

We did have a plumber (!!) damage our pressure regulator by turning the whole-house shutoff valve (inches away from the regulator) too quickly; that was a bit annoying.

It would be extremely difficult to cause water hammer with a ball valve. They're just too difficult to close quickly.

Water hammer is a huge issue with faucets, which can be closed quickly, and with electrically actuated valves such as in washing machines, which close very quickly.

Is this actually a thing? I know there are videos of watwr hammer on youtube (US centric)

There are no regulations afaik in Europe in domestic = no-industrial plumbing and sure we have quarter valves which you can quickly turn off. I never ever heard of a bursting pipe because of water hammmer.

I am a plumber and sprinkler tech (nyc) and literally have never seen a broken pipe that could reliably be traced to water hammer damage.

Really would only be concerned if you are building fire safety systems. Now those sudden GPMs need some support.

I had a problem just this past summer hooking up a pressure washer to a hose outlet. After two hours of constant on-off cycling, had the pipe leading to the hose bib burst. You could hear the water hammer quite clearly (and violently!) after I repaired it, so I went back and added a hammer arrestor.

To me what I hear: your pipes weren't supported and your pressure is too high if it can be described as violent. I can hear my old office's script telling me to sell you a PRV or two.

I hear what you’re saying but isn’t it a bit of six of one and half a dozen of the other? The high(er) pressure relative to what the pipes could withstand exacerbates the effects of water hammer induced by the pressure washer’s solenoid constantly slamming open and shut in the matter of milliseconds, no? Lower pressure (via a PRV or otherwise), higher-rated pipes, slowly opening and closing valves, or strategically installed hammer arresters are all (theoretically and to various extents) viable solutions, no?

Because you are fixing symptoms (w/ another failure point) with local solutions and not the disease (high pressure, bad or unsupported pipes) and good plumbers do not do that because A) ethics B) liability

If your question is can those gas piston water hammer arrestors protect fixtures-- sure, I mean that part is just physics. Whether it's worth it before a hosecock is a completely different matter -- also as per the OP you're far more likely to break a toilet valve just from handling than from water hammer.

I use quarter turn ball valves everywhere and slam the crap out of them. If a pipe bursts from that, it needs to be fixed, and I’d rather it happen while I’m there slamming valves around than when I’m not home.

But it has never happened.

Ah yes, the chaos monkey approach to plumbing. I buy it. The best time to have a leak is during or immediately after doing plumbing work. The worst time is when you are asleep, out of the house, or on vacation.

Isn't it code nowadays to have water hammer arrestors that trap air and create a cushion?

Plastic piping (if equipped) functions as a water hammer arrestor. An expansion tank will as well, though a picky inspector may insist that the automatic valve location must have a water hammer arrestor if you are piped with metal supplies.

I know expansion tanks are required by IRC these days and those can help with hammer a bit too, as they're doing a similar function.

It happened to me once, now I turn off the water when I go on vacation.

you don't have embedded copper water lines in concrete slabs I assume? sure a little drywall damage is nothing but having to jackhammer that up is a bigger ask.

I've seen people just abandon those lines in favor of running pex through the walls rather than fix them.

When I lived in South Africa and the power went off frequently, the water went off because it couldn't be pumped. It absolutely was a thing in the water came back on. I could totally hear it in the roof.

And/or stick a hammer preventer in your piping in multiple places.

A timer sprinkler system kept water hammering, and I bought a little device that completely stopped it.

If you're in the U.S., Home Depot sells Giancomini ball valves (branded "Everbilt") that are lead free. They're rated for water and gas.

If you're looking for stops for faucet and toilet supply risers, then they're pretty much all lead free now. SharkBite and BrassCraft, for example, only make lead-free stops.

Something interesting to point out is that until about 2014 "lead-free" plumbing could in fact contain amounts of lead. I forget the cut-off level but it was something like 8%.

I'm not all that worried about lead. In most places it's not an issue because of how restricted it's been, we have tests for it in products, tests in people, etc. I'm more concerned about plastics, forever chemicals, etc which are everywhere, aren't routinely tested for, and have known negative impacts (not on the same severity as lead).

This comment doesn't make sense, particularly wrt TFA.

What doesn't make sense?

the article says it's more poisonous and causes more IQ loss than previously thought.

Yeah, and I still don't find it that concerning given the low prevalence and still relatively low IQ per ug/dL reduction. Slightly lower IQ is more appealing to me than things like cancer.

So most likely that is focused on hydronic heating systems. Personally at my local home improvement store all the fitting in the plumbing section are listed as potable/lead free.

If you have some examples of fittings that you are referring to I would be interested. I can only really find hydronic circulator pumps that are only low lead instead of lead free.

A few feet of hot water pipes in fittings won't create a problem. Think of the thousands of feet of pipe that water runs through, where it often sits for days, then spends a fraction of a second in a tap or shower nozzle. Worried? Just run the tap for half a second before drinking.

That depends on the chemical makeup of the water (I think PH, but maybe something else). Some water will dissolve lead quickly and thus be unsafe, while others will not. Some water will leave a coating on the insides of pipes and so the lead doesn't even touch the water (this coating can build up over time though), while others will clean that coating off and so lead can touch the pipe.

That doesn't make any sense. Half a second is barely enough time for water to move through the hose from the wall to the faucet.

What are we going to do? Pass a law? To force the millions of voters paying hardly any property tax who bought their lead-loaded homes in 1983 for $40,000 in Los Angeles and San Francisco, now worth $1.1m, to you know, fix them? Then will we pay for the even greater rise in rents? I hate lead, pollution and my incredibly cheap landlord, but I feel like I have no choice in California.

That seems like a non-sequitur. He's saying that new fittings contain lead. Step one is to ban those.

This does leave existing homes with old fittings, but "stopping the bleeding" doesn't require retrofits. The old housing stock will gradually be replaced/updated. Accelerating that trend is the logical next step, but it's a second, separate step.

> What are we going to do? Pass a law?

Yes!

It wouldn't burden existing homeowners because such laws almost always grandfather in existing structures.

When they banned lead paint and asbestos, I don't think anyone immediately repainted their walls or replaced their asbestos drywall. It slowly phases out over a number of decades.

> When they banned lead paint and asbestos, I don't think anyone immediately repainted their walls or replaced their asbestos drywall. It slowly phases out over a number of decades.

Kinda. Or, rich people got it replaced right away. Poor people are still living it with it today.

Go test a $500k and a $100k (this is midwest price not SF price) house for Lead and Asbestos. I bet you find very different results on the average.

My grandmother's house still has asbestos in it ($400k house in New York). Short of tearing her house down and building a new one there's no way to fix that, but decades later I'm benefitting from the ban by living in an asbestos-free house built after the ban. Gotta start somewhere even if the benefit isn't felt by everyone at the same exact point in time. It would definitely benefit the rich first since they tend to be the ones building new property.

There's zero harm from asbestos as long as you don't mess with it. Your grandmother is safe.

Tearing her house down, on the other hand, can actually be bad for her, if she's staying near it while they mess with her asbestos.

There's not really any issue with asbestos as long as you leave it alone and don't mess with it. It doesn't need to be torn out unless you're renovating.

> "THE BEST THING TO DO WITH ASBESTOS MATERIAL IN GOOD CONDITION IS TO LEAVE IT ALONE!" [1]

[1] https://www.cpsc.gov/safety-education/safety-guides/home/asb...

Kinda hard to do when your ceiling is covered in delicate popcorn asbestos that showers down on you every time it gets touched. This is very common.

If they're crumbling or damaged they should be abated, but if they're in good condition they don't pose a risk.

There is no such thing as a popcorn ceiling that doesn't crumble every time you so much as change a lighting fixture.

Inequality isn't an argument against taking the necessary regulatory measures, it's an argument to work on the inequality (or subsidize the retrofits).

"It wouldn't burden existing homeowners because such laws almost always grandfather in existing structures."

In Mass you have to de-lead for any tenant with children under 7 or so, and it's illegal to discriminate by choosing tenants without children. No grandfathering.

You obviously didn't live in the SF Bay area in the 80's. Houses were not that cheap even then.

And they're more than $1.1m now.

Use a water filter.

There is also an exception for leaded gas in small/private jets ("AVGas") so its used in some of those formulations.

No jets use or have ever used leaded products. Jets run on Jet-A, which is a close relative of kerosene. It has never been leaded. The purpose of lead was to prevent cylinders from prematurely detonating ("knocking") in internal combustion engines. Jets do not have any cylinders to knock; the fuel burns continually in an open combustion chamber.

You may have been thinking of 100LL (100 Low Lead) fuel for piston engined planes. Many airports stopped selling 100LL in January of 2022. The FAA has approved a lead-free replacement in fuels like UL94 that are steadily replacing 100LL.

At last! I live in France and it is still 100LL everywhere, except for ultralights which mostly use automotive gas (mogas) or sometimes UL91.

But do they actually sell it everywhere? My experience with aviation is that change happens incredibly slowly. The simple fact that they still use that abomination that is 100LL is telling. Poisoning thousands of people for decades just because of paperwork essentially. As an amateur pilot, I understand the idea of using only tried and tested solutions, you really want things to be reliable up there, but our representatives can at least make the necessary efforts to make our already environmentally questionable hobby not needlessly poison people.

> Many airports stopped selling 100LL in January of 2022.

Really? That is news to me. Googling reveals that two airports did that, both in the same county: Reid-Hillview Airport (KRHV) and San Martin Airport (E16).

Bay Area bias, sorry. Many airports near me did. I have no knowledge about Oklahoma.

> Many airports near me did.

Could you list a few of the many? I looked around Bay Area airports, and found most of them selling 100LL:

  KSFO - San Francisco International Airport - $9.90         
  KHAF - Half Moon Bay Airport - $6.42                       
  KOAK - Metro Oakland International Airport - $8.21/$8.64   
  KHWD - Hayward Executive Airport - $7.99/$7.55             
  KPAO - Palo Alto Airport - $6.35/$6.95/$6.59               
  CA35 - San Rafael Airport - $6.84                             
  KSJC - Norman Y Mineta San Jose International Airport - $10.07/$8.95  
  KLVK - Livermore Municipal Airport - $6.54/$7.54                
  KCCR - Buchanan Field Airport - $7.15/$6.98                   
  KDVO - Gnoss Field Airport - $7.67/$7.87                         
  KAPC - Napa County Airport - $9.20                                
   0Q3 - Sonoma Valley Airport - $8.00                              
   C83 - Byron Airport - $6.35                                  
   0Q9 - Sonoma Skypark Airport - $6.30                  
   O69 - Petaluma Municipal Airport - $6.95

> Many airports stopped selling 100LL in January of 2022.

Judging by the size of the GA fleet, and by the fact that a sizeable portion of that fleet is not certified to fly with UL94, allow me to doubt the seriousness of that news..

It took ages, but that is finally being phased out

> On February 23, 2022, the FAA joined aviation and petroleum industry stakeholders to announce a comprehensive public-private partnership to transition to lead-free aviation fuels for piston-engine aircraft by the end of 2030.

https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/avgas

> exception for leaded gas in small/private jets

Jets run on jet fuel (which is basically kerosene and has no lead). Avgas is used in many piston-powered small aircraft.

That can't be the only exception. Maybe nobody sells it premixed anymore but back in the 90s we had to mix lead additive into gasoline for vintage motorcycles.

Modern octane boosters for classic cars and bikes use other types of cylinder head lubricants.

Why is it specially allowed in hot water lines?

It's not allowed in any water lines used for drinking or cooking. I would read that as not allowed on hot water lines serving the kitchen for sure (and I suspect most plumbers would agree).

The warning on items from my plumbing supply house for lead containing items is prominent, pops up on each "add to cart", and says "This product does not comply with the “Safe Drinking Water Act,” which requires that products meet low-lead standards in order to be used in systems providing water for human consumption (drinking or cooking). This item is for non-potable (non-human consumption) water applications only."

It is allowed in hydronic heating, HVAC/R, and irrigation fittings (which of course don't have a human consumption element to them).

I think that is allowed because we don’t drink from the hot water tap.

If the water was already hot because I was doing something else, I'll make soup or pasta with a pot of hot water. If the kitchen were closer to my water heater, I'd do it more consistently.

You're never supposed to cook with hot tap water. Even if lead is not a concern, there are other possible contaminants that can leech from plastic and copper pipes, or from the tank itself.

This is not taught in the US and we blend hot and cold together. Why are the lines blended at the faucet if that’s the case?

There's a lot that's not formally taught in the US. But I'm in the US and this is a thing. The blended faucets are fine. If it was set to hot or some blend with hot in it, you set it to cold and let it run for 1-3 seconds.

No, it’s blended because hot water is fine in the US. We don’t use hot water tanks that sit on rooftops and accumulate bird shit.

If you ever find yourself cleaning the inside of a hot water heater some day, it will disabuse you of that habit.

I'm sure it's mostly harmless, but they accumulate a truly horrific amount of mineral deposits and other weird gunk in there.

They accumulate gunk that was present in the cold water supply.

If its not quite hot enough you can end up having a nice incubator for bacteria

Yes, but water coming from the cold water tap has spent less time sitting in that accumulated stuff.

Seems like the presence of the accumulated gunk in the cylinder means the hot water must be cleaner by definition? The accumulation being the net difference between what was dissolved in the incoming water and what is dissolved in the outgoing water.

With the exception of gunk that is from the lining of the cylinder itself of course.

There can't be more minerals coming out than what went in though. It's not like calcium grows. Maybe it might break off and come out as some concentrated chunks, but overall there would have to be less coming out for it to accumulate in the tank.

Yeah, so the gunk has less time to fall out of the cold water.

Looking inside a kettle in London provides the same experience (at least when I lived there).

Now we live on rain water and the inside of the kettle is pristine, despite bird crap on our roof and flora in the guttering.

That's why modern kettles can be cleaned. I clean the mineral deposits out of mine once a year or so.

For things like an instapot where you add a cup of water to it, you are actually supposed to use distilled water. I used tap for years with mine and got all sorts of mineralization. It took quite a bit of vinegar to get that off, and now everything looks pristine since I have been using distilled water. You might consider using it for your next kettle, although perhaps the minerals in tap do something to the taste of the tea.

Do you buy hundreds of liters of distilled water? That doesnt sound practical

If I'm making tea I do. I can't imagine that lead is boiling off...

You should switch to using the cold water tap to fill your kettle! Also, when you see what kind of build up can happen in a hot water heater, you'll definitely want to avoid drinking from the hot water tap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAzKts6Wp1Q&t=207s

That's not lead, that's limescale[1]. Dissolved limestone is carried through the pipes, and settles out as scale.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limescale

Yes, I didn't say it was lead. It is just a dirty, unpleasant container. Not where you want to get your drinking water, especially for tea.

It isn't just limescale in your hot water heater, it is whatever your water pipe carries in and accumulates in the tank. We lived at the beach and had to flush sand out every couple years.

Your cold water carries the same junk into your tea. It’s just missing the settling tank that would separate it out.

It is potentially a decade of accumulated junk in the hot water heater. If you aren't able to taste the difference, the data backs up the issue with drinking hot water.

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/29/health/29real.html

https://blogs.edf.org/health/2018/02/26/lead-hot-water-issue...

https://www.denverwater.org/tap/psa-dont-drink-or-cook-with-...

Make up your mind, does it come in or go out of the hot water tank?

It can’t both accumulate and leave at the same time.

False assumption it needs to accumulate and leave at the same time.

That's a terrible way to make tea, fwiw.

I want to stress that I actually don't give a shit (I am not that into tea, I just drink it sometimes, it's not a big deal to me), but I am curious as to why.

Unrelated to the tea, but cold water is somewhat safer to drink than water coming from your boiler, that's why.

IDK, they said "a terrible way to make tea", I'm assuming there's some sorta tea lore that I'm unaware of

There are tea drinkers that believe very strongly in using water that isn't "stale" (eg, leftover in the kettle from the last time). Presumably water from the hot water tap would be stale for similar reasons.

I think the theory is that "stale" water lacks sufficient oxygen for tea brewing to fully brew or something.

It's not O2: if you let water sit out, various things (including CO2) dissolve in it, making it slightly acidic and taste stale.

I'm not a big tea drinker, but I am definitely not a super fan of water that's been sitting out a day. There's not been time for stuff to grow in it yet, but it still tastes gross.

That makes sense.

Fill a cup with cool water and take a sip before you go to sleep. Tastes great, right? Taste it eight hours later when you get up in the morning. It takes on an acrid taste.

It's not hot enough. Black tea is usually brewed with boiling hot water around 95 - 100 °C. Green tea is usually brewed a bit lower than that at around 80 °C. But the domestic hot water supply is typically around 50 °C, to prevent burns. It'll be very weak, and probably taste a bit off. Same with coffee, or anything else that requires boiling hot water.

I don't drink tea made from hot water. I put hot water into a pot and heat it up further.

Restaurants are sometimes equipped with hot water lines from the water district and a filler tap right above or near the stove so that boiling water doesn't take so long.

I know people who fill their water boiler with hot tap water ...

Me too and it always felt wrong to me and never did it myself. Now I have a solid reason.

Oh and you should not drink directly from the warm tab water, as warm water that was standing some time, has way more microorganisms .. a point my 2 year old is not yet accepting.

I fill my water distiller with hot tap water. Guaranteed to be safe. Yes, I'm talking about a machine that boils the water, collects the steam, and condenses it back to water. It removes absolutely everything.

You shouldn't drink distilled water for a prolonged time as it will desalinate your body and depreve it from rare minerals.

A banana probably has more than enough electrolytes to counter this

The hot tap water likely has more dissolved solids in it. Over time that will precipitate into your distiller.

You can remove that by running a few cycles with vinegar. But if you fill with cold water, you'll get fewer deposits and have to clean less often.

Absolutely everything… that has a boiling point higher than water’s. It won’t do anything to remove alcohol, for instance. Or any other contamination that boils off before water does.

Ofc you could discard the head and tail of your distillation operation…

Yes, you're right in a pedantic way =). I trust that my city's tap water doesn't have alcohol in it. After all, I previously and many people still drink it without extra filtering, and it's safe enough to do so.

Relatedly, the standard technique in alcohol distillation is to discard the head because it contains toxic methanol. https://youtu.be/a1IruS1bKN8?t=672

But alcohol isn't the only thing that has a boiling point lower than water.

But when I googled hot water tap the first images it showed were... uh...

https://www.sinks-taps.com/articles/2018/9/21/the-benefits-o...

hahaha ok, but that product is a hot-water heater built into your kitchen tap to do away with your hot water kettle. Presumably, that's not plumbed to your teapot with a lead boiler and faucet. (weird, "plumbed" means "leaded")

...We don't...? Who?

In the past it was common knowledge not to. It's of much more uncertainty as house plumbing has changed.

That's because it is primarily a historical artifact[0]. Most modern plumbing heats water on-demand, which pretty much entirely avoids the risk of storage tank contamination or Legionella.

[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfHgUu_8KgA

>Most modern plumbing heats water on-demand

Where is this the case? These kind of things are extremely locational and here in the US it seems like 45 gallon hot water tanks are still the norm. We had a fad with "on demand" hot water heating but everyone gave up on it when the "it saves you money" part didn't work so well.

Here in Europe the money saving works really well. The issue is that you need a lot of power to heat on demand. Meaning natural gas. Having an electrical connection strong enough to heat water for a shower is rare.

I wouldn’t consider on-demand heaters to be all that modern. Places that use on-demand water heaters are now at a disadvantage because it is much more challenging to switch away from fossil fuels over to electric. Tanks, especially with a heat pump, can provide all the heating a household needs through a standard 120V15A socket. For on demand electric water heating you’re looking at upgrading main panels to supply an additional 240V20A and even that will struggle to heat the water enough in some winter climates.

Storage tanks are extremely common in Australia, but they are run hot enough to kill anything and then get mixed with cold water to bring it back to the desired temp.

Hot water heating is where it is allowed. Some houses have hot water heating which should never touch tap water and so lead won't be a problem (well it might be to plumbers working on it).

Lead is an amazing material, too bad it is toxic, because from a materials stand point it is very useful to put a little into many different metals to useful properties.

What parts of a hot water supply line contain lead. Can you share a link?

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