Activists goals have always been for redirecting some police funding to education, community outreach, different divisions for different problems, etc. There are some that push for abolition but the overall goal of those who actually have been doing it for years has been to address the underlying problems and not to throw more money at an armed force with immunity.
American social disorder is a unique phenomenon that cannot be waved away as being caused by poverty, lack of education, etc. And frankly it’s kind of offensive to make that comparison. Poor, uneducated people around the world manage to maintain more orderly communities than Americans who are vastly more privileged and affluent in comparison.
Estimated number of civilian firearms per 100 people:
- U.S.: 120.5
- India: 5.3
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_g...
Despite having more guns, Idaho has a homicide rate of 2.2 per 100,000, which is only a little higher than Belgium, and about the same as Canada, and a little lower than India.
By contrast, Puerto Rico had fewer guns than India, but a homicide rate of 19 per 100,000, more than six times higher than India. Disarmed Puerto Rico has a homicide rate eight times higher than heavily armed Idaho.
Clinging to the belief that it’s guns rather than social factors is just willful denial.
- Idaho: 22.3 (44th out of 50 states) [0]
- Puerto Rico: 952 [1]
- India: 1,244 [2]
[0] https://www.gethealthy.dhw.idaho.gov/overview-of-idaho
[1] https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/puerto-rico-p...
[2] https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/india-populat...
That's a false dichotomy — sure, social factors play an important role, but it's a multi-variate phenomenon, and you seem to want to deny that gun-ownership rates have anything to do with it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-r...
Estimated number of civilian firearms per 100 people and gun deaths per 100000:
- El Salvador: 5.8, 78.52
- Brazil: 8.6, 23.93
- Colombia: 10.10, 20.38
- U.S.: 120.5, 12.21
- Mexico: 15, 11.55
If anything it seems like proximity to cartels is the most likely predictor of gun homicide rates
Meanwhile Switzerland has 27.6 guns per 100 civilians and 2.64 gun homicides per 100,000. So not sure what to conclude about gun ownership and homicides. Note that gun deaths not equal to gun homicides since deaths includes suicide and the CDC reports these items combined. If you wanted to discuss gun suicides that's fine but note this was about homicide.
Another data point: Switzerland has strict gun laws that mostly ban the kind of military-grade firearms we see used in mass murders in the U.S. (and yes, some Latin American countries), and smaller guns require permits. [0]
More: "Switzerland has a stunningly high rate of gun ownership — here's why it doesn't have mass shootings ... Unlike the US, Switzerland has mandatory military service for men. The government gives all men between the ages of 18 and 34 deemed 'fit for service' a pistol or a rifle and training on how to use them. After they've finished their service, the men can typically buy and keep their service weapons, but they have to get a permit for them." [1]
[0] https://www.ch.ch/en/safety-and-justice/owning-a-weapon-in-s... (scan down for a useful chart)
[1] https://www.businessinsider.com/switzerland-gun-laws-rates-o...
This is completely, verifiably false. It even contradicts the rest of your comment, where you quote:
> After they've finished their service, the men can typically buy and keep their service weapons
The “service weapon” here means literally the one that they used in military, which, as I presume, is “military grade”.
The first link in my post is to an official Swiss government site. If you want to quibble about what constitutes a "military-grade" firearm, that's certainly your privilege.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Paddock#Las_Vegas_shoo...
BTW, did you also overlook the part about Switzerland requiring military training and service for (essentially) all able-bodied men in a certain age range? Whereas in the U.S., pretty much any untrained bozo who never served can buy high-powered weaponry and strut around cosplaying in camo and body armor, ostentatiously toting the weaponry and shouting belligerent slogans. (It's been my untutored conjecture that most such folks are trying to compensate for deep-seated fears that they don't really measure up in the masculinity department, although there also seems to be a certain percentage of sociopaths in the mix as well.)
> Switzerland has strict gun laws that mostly ban the kind of military-grade firearms we see used in mass murders in the U.S.
And this is clearly false: you have not shown a single “military grade firearm” that we see used in mass murders in the US, but which is banned in Switzerland. All mass murders in US that I know of have used normal capacity magazines, and these are not banned in Switzerland. Your best argument here is that there might have been some mass murder in the US that used some weapon banned in Switzerland, but this is very far cry from your original goalpost, which is that Switzerland mostly bans guns used in mass murders in US: it overwhelmingly does not.
> BTW, did you also overlook the part about Switzerland requiring military training and service for (essentially) all able-bodied men in a certain age range?
Not sure what it has to do with the discussion, which was about clearly and explicitly false claim you made and apparently continue to hold on to, despite utter lack of evidence. Military service is not a prerequisite for gun ownership in Switzerland in general (it is for some guns, though).
> although there also seems to be a certain percentage of sociopaths in the mix as well
If we are playing armchair psychologist here, well, I could say something here about social orientation of people knowingly spreading verifiable falsehoods on the internet to further their ideology and agenda.
"Utter lack of evidence"? As the hoary old chestnut goes: Denial is more than just a river in Egypt.
I'm done trying to argue with you — you clearly see only what you want to see.
And nice try with the "some unrelated contemporary political drama" — it's all of a piece, with far-right Republicans trying to do a Cardassian "there are five lights" routine (from ST:TNG).
This is just a bunch of middle class "defund" people with little else going on.
Warrior training and being trained that everyone is an adversary with execution being the go to option isn't normal and shouldn't be ingrained in folks whose day-to-day is largely nonviolent encounters.
Excellent advice.
It's time we stop living in or creating a fantasy world where every encounter with the public is an opportunity for a gun battle. Perhaps if they were trained in deescalation and not told to fear every person they encounter as potential threat then they wouldn't be perpetually afraid for their lives while performing routine interactions with the public?
We don't need to be investing heavily in training cops for an exception encounter, we need to be providing them the training and tools necessary for their day to day duties. As a follow on, the public wouldn't be afraid for their own safety when having to interact with police.
that's the world you're living in, where these selfless, fearless (and also defenseless) people go out to sacrifice themselves every day.
> training cops for an exception encounter,
yeah, except the "exception" means you don't come home to your family that day.
So I guess we should be giving every citizen that same paramilitary training because they have a higher chance of being killed by a cop than a cop does by them.
would you like some examples where they didn't?
If this is an honest question, it must be coming from a lack of knowledge about policing in the U.S. for the last two decades:
After 9/11-- and especially after the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq-- there was an escalation in militarized police tactics, equipment and grants. Some of this started in the preceding decades during the war on drugs. But anti-terrorism federal grants and many other sources of funding for militarization training and equipment flowed like rivers post 9/11. This funding was-- and mostly still is-- available to police from the largest cities to the smallest municipality. This and the war on drugs have become a sizable chunk of police department budgets. If you go to a town of 1,000 people and see a local police humvee vehicle tooling around, they got it at least in part through some militarization or anti-drug grant. Possibly both. (Note: if there's a dog in the humvee it's probably the latter, which means the department has an ongoing obligation to show stats for how they've been using this equipment and dog in successful anti-drug efforts. Not sure what the obligations are for the anti-terror grants, though.)
By at least the 2010's, critics on both the left and right were speaking about the problems of this approach to policing. Essentially, a) it creates/exacerbates an "police vs. citizens" approach to policing that's at odds with the core goal of police being a community service for citizens, and b) there isn't enough time in a day nor money in a municipality to train police to do public safety and develop the skills necessary to competently use military anti-terrorism/anti-insurgency tactics and equipment.
The activists who aren't radical-- e.g., the ones who aren't anti-state-- typically want more (I'd say better) training on the public safety side of things. This means things like de-escalation techniques, outreach with citizens, partnering with social workers, detective work, etc.
What you will nearly never hear police reform activists in the U.S. agitating for is more militarization training and equipment for the police. That includes a number of the civil libertarians on the right.
Finally, I'll say that the activists I've read are convinced that Cop City is all about funding more militarized training of Atlanta PD. I don't know enough about the plans to know whether that's true or not. But the idea of activists pushing back against ostensible police militarization training/funding is in keeping with two decades of efforts on the left-- and right-- to protect the bill of rights in the 21st century.
I think you're saying "doesn't agree with me." There's no lack of knowledge -- there's only a lack of indoctrination.
American cops are American cops. Crime spiked up until 1990 or so, then it was brought under control, and lately it's been spiking again. I think some people like you consider that a reasonable price to pay for whatever goals you're trying to achieve.