Comment by PreInternet01 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by PreInternet01 | Hacker News Reader

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OK, so, once again, a total anecdote here. Anecdotes are definitely not a substitute for actual data, there is a sample size of one (possibly zero) involved here, so proceed at your own risk.

During winter in Greenland, it's totally accepted to leave your car engine running at all times. Why? Because it's likely your diesel supply will freeze up otherwise.

The initial rollout of EVs in Greenland was a disaster. Fine during boring season (as summer is known locally: you can't go out and hunt properly!), but useless most of the year: the batteries would just die.

Then, EVs with built-in heat pumps became available, to aid with cabin temperature (mostly) but also very-cold-weather startup performance (coincidentally). These worked pretty well: when parked, the heat pump would supply warm-ish air to the batteries, which would then continue to feed the heat pump, and work with a properly charged power pack the next day.

So, instead of diesel cars idling 24/7, new EVs now run at, say, 80% efficiency in Greenland. Not a huge deal, globally speaking, but still a nice win.

Diesel cars will have a lot of issues from a cold engine way before the diesel freezes outright (diesel sold during the winter typically have freezing points below -40C).

For instance, the battery charges really poorly when it's cold, diesel crystals can form in the diesel filter, even if the fuel is technically liquid, and the engine is really inefficient if it's too cold.

Of these, the battery not charging properly, coupled with a lot more electricity needed to start the engine when cold, is probably the first one you will encounter. If it's -20C, you may have to charge the battery once every few days using an external charger, if you mostly do short to medium trips.

I live in Norway, were we can get quite cold weather too, and the typical remedy is some kind of engine heater, fueled either by electricity or by the car's own fuel (for newer models, mostly).

There are several types of heating elements, some heat the cooliant (heatiant during winter), some heat the engine oil, and some just heat the underside of the car. All can contribute really well to the problems you get down to -40C or a bit below, at least if they provide enough power (some may be underpowered if the car is exposed and it's really cold) I think these will melt crystals forming in the diesel filter, and once the engine is started, diesel will circulate through the engine, ensuring that the fuel in the tank reaches an acceptable temperature sooner. Also, a warmer engine requires a lot less electricity to start, meaning battery issues are less likely.

While I don't think most of these are designed to heat the fuel tank directly, they probably generate enough heat that some of the heating will spill to the fuel, too, especially if the car is sheltered in a garage.

And if the temperature outside falls well below -40C, you can probably heat the garage using a lot less energy than required to keep the engine running.

Keeping the engine running 24/7 in any location where electricity is available, doesn't seem like an efficient solution unless you're deep in Siberia and fuel is subsidized but electricity is not.

How cold does it get then? EVs are good to -35C and most cars should be ok down to -30C. Idling solves nothing about the frozen tires and stiff axles and shock absorbers. Best would be to insulate the car with a simple tarp and I bet -50C wouldn't be a problem.

I live in Saskatchewan Canada these days, and you can see -40C to -50C relatively commonly just about anywhere on the prairies. I understand -40C isn't that rare in most of BC or Ontario either.

Around the places I've known (not Vancouver. Vancouver is special) - Diesel gets idled, and starting back up is careful. - Propane gets idled -35C and below and hopes it won't shut down. - Gas tends towards long startups but unless it's been left out all day without a block heater, it'll probably be fine. - Natural gas tends to need idling as per Diesel.

I've no experience with EVs though. But with lack of charging infrastructure throughout most of the Canadian prairies, it might be a while before it's a workable option here.

Keep in mind that with electric the equation is different when you have a home. For most, they can charge it to full each night and have it warm/ready the next day. 110v/15A is enough to keep it from discharging and a warm battery but below freezing a 220/30A or more is better. The install isnt usually that expensive for 30 or 50A if the panel has room too. And in new builds in many places, charge to the car will be required. But always being full each morning changes how we see it, the infra is for those that travel and long trips which are not the norm.

Many parking lots in Saskatchewan have block heater outlets at all parking spots. That's fantastic EV infrastructure.

Tangentially related. I remember a YouTube video about life in Siberia where they would build a tarp tent over their cars and build a fire under it to get it moving in the winter

This one? I recently watched it! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH6r6J3WsDk

My Toyota auris hybrid battery never kicks in winter. It's a dead weight that makes fuel consumption worse. It helps a bit in the summer. I live in Scotland, so winters are pretty mild.

what would a tarp do to help?

i'm certain i'm overlooking something, because it's not like cars are generating heat to be reflected by a tarp, unless you mean a driven car, thus warm, covered by a tarp, would maintain its heat longer in -50c ?

The gas car is idling, and the EV car is running a heat pump.

The whole worry about EV's an cold weather always seemed to me to be something people unaware of of block heaters would worry about.

Story: One time a friend of mine got a hold of a diesel water heater used for semitrucks. I figured out how to get it running and then he used it a few times to build ghetto hot tubs in the snow.

I'm guessing the price of gas is ridiculous in greenland. Makes sense that an ev would net a quick payoff there. Even if you guys are running your power plants off fossil fuels, the larger generators are probably more efficient.

Diesel is pretty cheap in Greenland, but that's not related to the actual cost of getting the stuff there. One thing to keep in mind, though, is that pretty much nobody has a car in Greenland. Not because of some enviromento-wokism, but just because there are not that many roads.

You live in Ilulissat? Have fun driving between the harbor and the airport (all of the 20-or-so miles). And people do, but they tend to be taxi drivers, and they mostly drive EVs these days, again, not because of the actual cost of the vehicles.

Now, if you want to go anywhere in Greenland, you need a boat. And a sled and some dogs, or, if you insist, a snowmobile.

> it's totally accepted to leave your car engine running at all times

There is a smaller system that can consume diesel slowly and keep your fuel from freezing -- one doesn't have to run the entire engine!

Sorry if this is a silly question; why isn't there more investment in heated garages? Going outside to get into a below-freezing car sounds very uncomfortable.

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