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Life isn’t fair. Laws protect the broad population interest. One person’s inconvenience is someone else surviving. Regulation written in blood and whatnot.

A vocal minority will complain, this will get built into the supply chain, and a decade or two from now, only older folks will complain. For everyone else, they’ll wonder why they didn’t have them before. So it goes. Notice how much safer cars are versus decades ago.

https://www.texastribune.org/2022/09/21/generators-carbon-mo...

> Portable generators are one of the deadliest consumer products on the market, killing about 80 people in the U.S. each year and poisoning thousands of others.

> Laws protect the broad population interest.

No, they don't, they "protect" the irresponsible at the expense of everyone else.

> Your inconvenience is someone else surviving.

That's the wrong way to describe the situation. First, it might be more than an inconvenience to me: the CO detector or automatic shutoff might break when my power is out, and now my generator, which would have worked perfectly fine without this stupid regulation, is gone in the middle of an outage when I was depending on it working. And that can have serious consequences.

Second, you don't know for sure that the irresponsible will survive even with this regulation. As someone else upthread pointed out, someone irresponsible enough to run their generator indoors will still do it even with these protective devices (in fact they'll be more likely to because they are stupid enough to think that the devices make it safe, which it isn't), and that could still kill them.

> So it goes.

Indeed, that's how it's been going for decades in the US. And as a result our society is a mess. When people no longer have an incentive to not be stupid, you will get more and more stupid people. Not a good recipe for a functioning society.

Right, so it’s everyone’s responsibility to be completely up to speed with the safety requirements of everything they buy.

You bought a toy for your kid that happened to include lead. Too bad. You were IRRESPONSIBLE! You should have read all the fine print before buying it.

Your local baker’s muffin has arsenic in it and you ate it and died? IRRESPONSIBLE. You should have known that the presence of arsenic is a possibility. You should have checked with the baker if they added it.

That’s a ridiculous approach.

Also, this isn’t new fangled technology. It exists and is widely deployed and there’s no evidence it increases failure by any meaningful amount.

Yes. We should be up to speed on safety issues surrounding the purchases we make. The third example is murder and we already have “regulations” for it. (I know arsenic and lead can be in muffins already. I’m assuming a large amount was added.)

>Right, so it’s everyone’s responsibility to be completely up to speed with the safety requirements of everything they buy.

No, it's only their responsibility to read and follow the manufacturer's instructions. That's very different from having to independently research and identify hidden or unknown dangers.

> so it’s everyone’s responsibility to be completely up to speed with the safety requirements of everything they buy.

When they are explicitly stated in the user manual? Yes. That's part of being a responsible adult.

Your examples are of cases where the seller is not telling you material facts about the product. (Unless you think that toy makers who put lead in their toys or bakers who put arsenic in their muffins actually do state that explicitly somewhere in their "fine print". Which of course they don't.) That's a completely different situation, which we already have a name for: fraud.

> That’s a ridiculous approach.

No, what is ridiculous is to make a completely invalid comparison as though it were a valid argument.

> there’s no evidence it increases failure by any meaningful amount

A number of other posters in the thread have posted evidence to the contrary. Your naive confidence in the power and goodness of regulations is sadly misplaced.

Wrong. Everyone with yet another safety feature failing when it's needed will complain. There's no reason the idiocy of a few should cost everyone else. The BS safety 'features' are unwelcome everywhere, on all products.

> > Portable generators are one of the deadliest consumer products on the market, killing about 80 people in the U.S. each year

That doesn't even seem to register compared to that other deadly consumer product, the personal automobile.

>A vocal minority will complain, this will get built into the supply chain, and a decade or two from now, only older folks will complain.

Yeah, and then during a disaster there's a fault with these new components that render the generator unusable during a critical time that results in someone dying.

>Notice how much safer cars are versus decades ago.

Cars tend to work even if the modern features are broken. Imagine if the car would stop its engine if it couldn't detect that your seatbelt was on. Eg during a drive the detector malfunctions and suddenly your car loses power in the highway.

A generator working can be very important at a time when other stuff tends to break. Making it less likely to work is going to cause problems.

Having models with these protections is splendid. Making it mandatory on all of them is not.

When you die, you can't switch to the other brand. The market mechanism works poorly here.

You frame this as stupidity, but I think a more accurate characterization would be ignorance. Not everybody has the education of the average HN contributor. Also, some people have mild mental/intellectual deficiencies or simply below-average IQ (I guess that's the people you call "stupid", but they are people too - and one day you might end up learning a bunch from one of them)

Where do we draw the line—should gas grills have a carbon monoxide detector and shutoff valve to stop the flow of propane if someone is grilling indoors? What about cars?

It’s hard for me to fathom how somebody could possibly think operating an internal combustion engine inside of a building is not going to kill them.

Lastly, a generator is used in emergency situations. If a safety feature that is unnecessary for 99.99% of people means your generator can’t start, that’s not good either.

> Where do we draw the line

You are assuming that "we" have to draw a line somewhere. "We" don't. Individual people should be making their own decisions about these things.

> It’s hard for me to fathom how somebody could possibly think operating an internal combustion engine inside of a building is not going to kill them.

It's hard for me too. But for a small number of people, it seems to be the case. As the saying goes, "You can't make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious."

But it's even harder for me to fathom how, given the above, people still somehow believe that government regulation will magically fix the problem, and ignore the fact that such regulations, as I've said, punish all the rest of us who are responsible adults for the irresponsibility of a tiny few.

Are hundreds of people drying every year due to these gas drills?

Ok, then yes. We draw the line based on observed effects.

The observed effect is it’s costing the US $1Bn every year and the additional cost will pale in comparison.

If you want to disagree with those numbers fine.

If you think saving $1bn per year and tend to hundreds of lives at the cost of a few hundred thousand is not worth it. Fair enough. That’s why you elect legislators who have to approve and/or can disallow these rules.

The lines are drawn by your elected representatives based on costs and benefits.

That’s where you draw the line.

> The observed effect is it’s costing the US $1Bn every year

Given the number of people involved, which, as I've posted elsewhere in this thread, is miniscule (1300 deaths and 77,000 injuries over 17 years, which equates to 77 deaths and 4529 injuries per year), I have extreme difficulty believing this number. It looks like a number pulled out of someone's orifice for FUD.

> The lines are drawn by your elected representatives based on costs and benefits.

Not if they are based on numbers that don't seem to have any relation to reality.

Not to mention the fact, which has already been pointed out by several posters in this thread, including me, that the numbers involved are tiny compared to the numbers for traffic deaths--and automobile safety is already regulated up one side and down the other. Which should give anyone pause regarding the claimed "savings" due to regulation.

> You frame this as stupidity, but I think a more accurate characterization would be ignorance.

Ignorance of safety precautions that are explicitly stated in the user manual that comes with the generator? To me that's stupidity.

> Not everybody has the education of the average HN contributor.

Anyone who is reasonably literate should be able to properly understand "don't run this generator indoors".

> some people have mild mental/intellectual deficiencies or simply below-average IQ

In a sane society, such people would be wards of other people who were responsible for looking after them and ensuring their safety. Of course, we don't live in a sane society.

But in any case, such people probably won't have portable generators because they won't be planning ahead that much.

> I guess that's the people you call "stupid"

Not at all. I call a person stupid who knows enough to buy a portable generator as a precaution, but can't be bothered to learn how to properly use it.

used to live in the midwest. plenty of folks living in trailers in the boonies where power availability is unstable (some of these people are old and/or don't have a formal education). they find or are gifted a used generator. it doesn't have a manual.

but yeah, they're just stupid. not an issue of their circumstances - they're just stupid.

> to a small number of people being stupid and irresponsible is to punish all of the not stupid, not irresponsible people

Uninformed does not necessarily mean stupid. Besides that, where would you draw the line? Can't this argument be made more or less for every safety-feature ever? Why dictate seatbelts when you can just drive safely and not be stupid. Why have protective equipment etc?

> Uninformed

Nobody who buys a portable generator is uninformed about the required safety precautions. They're stated explicitly in the user manual.

> Can't this argument be made more or less for every safety-feature ever?

Yes. And the answer is the same for all of them. The fact that in our current society, many such regulations are already in place, does not make those regulations good ideas. It just means our society is not a sane society. Which should be obvious to anyone paying attention anyway.

> They're stated explicitly in the user manual.

Not everyone using a generator in a crisis bought the generator. Not everyone where a generator is being used in a crisis even speak the same language.

> I have a clue and won't run it indoors.

You say you have a clue, but unfortunately, someone looking at you can't tell if you actually have a clue or if you're an idiot that doesn't. And idiots without a clue will happily claim that they have one. The device is already covered in very clear warning labels that someone without a clue could use to get a clue. (The problem is people who are too smart, and think they have a clue but actually really don't. Which is unfortunate because they look the same as the other people, but loudly think the rules don't apply to them.)

Which leads to the other way we accomplish this, which is to allow people to sit through a course and take a test in order to get a license to do certain things, like drive or fish or remove asbestos or have pyrotechnics.

The challenges of modeling exactly sufficient airflow accurately isn't a short course, so regulation requiring a sensor is the least bad answer.

"suffer the consequences" ? You're acting like it's a foregone conclusion that these systems will fail. In reality, they largely will be fine and may add marginal cost to each system.

You could make the same argument for many, many safety related things (seatbelts, air bags, house related code requirements for electrical, etc). It's just the burden we all have agreed to bare.

> You're acting like it's a foregone conclusion that these systems will fail.

No, just that it's a risk that I would not choose to take for myself, but would be forced to take because of other people's irresponsibility if this regulation passes.

> In reality, they largely will be fine and may add marginal cost to each system.

Who gave you the right to make this tradeoff for me? Why can't you focus on the actual irresponsible people and figure out how to help them be less irresponsible? Why put a regulation in place that just gives them even less of an incentive to be responsible (because after all Big Brother is watching over them so they don't need to be)?

> It's just the burden we all have agreed to bare.

No, it's the burden that do-gooders have forced on the rest of us for no good reason, but simply because, in our current political system, they can.

> You're acting like it's a foregone conclusion that these systems will fail.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3222366/

"There are more than 38 million residential carbon monoxide detectors installed in the United States. We tested 30 detectors in use and found that more than half failed to function properly, alarming too early or too late. Forty percent of detectors failed to alarm in hazardous concentrations, despite outward indications that they were operating as intended."

If you look at Figure 2, some of the sensors failed safe (generators die) others unsafe (people die)