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Comment by timeagain | Hacker News Reader

The article discusses how agonizing it must be for a guesser when they have to say no to something. But something I have been dealing with recently is actually the reverse—the resentment a guesser feels when told “no”. Because in their mind, they have done the math and think they have correctly deduced they should receive a “yes”. Forthwrmore, since they don’t like saying “no”, they project this on their rejector and take it personally.

As a diehard “asker” I can’t help but see “guessing” as narcissistic. Why would you presume you know what I want? Of course from the other side “asking” can be seen as self centered—why can’t they read the room?

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From information perspective we are looking at two pieces of information: the request itself, and the answer.

The answer contains just 1 bit of information, yes or no.

The request carries much more information. Did you chose me specifically from all my colleagues for this request? This informs me about you and how you operate. Did you wait until a specific moment to make this request? This informs me about you and how you operate. Did you attach special conditions to your request? Did you formulate it like it's nothing, when in fact it is a big deal? Etc.

The Askers think there is no information in the request itself and its specific formulation, and just care about the 1 bit of information in the answer. They also believe that the request-answer is a stateless transaction, i.e. that nothing gets memorized, or changes the environment going forward.

The Guessers are the opposite, are very careful with what the information disclosed in the request itself can do to the environment, the people, and the relationship going forward.

"You could've just said no" is what Askers say when they want to say: please ignore all the information in my request.

Example:

You are a friend who often scratches/dings his car, has occasional accident, etc. and you ask me to loan you my car, which I saved a lot for, restored old model, etc.

I will say, NO.

But I also learned something about you, that besides being careless you are also not self-aware, so I will take that into consideration going forward.

> As a diehard “asker” I can’t help but see “guessing” as narcissistic. Why would you presume you know what I want?

Imagine that every time you said "no" to anything, it cost you $5.

If that were the case, would you probably find it rude if people made requests of you without much consideration - because every time you have to say "no" to such a request, $5 disappears from your bank account. I mean, you can still say "no", of course, but after a while all that money you are paying out starts to take a toll on you.

"Guess" culture doesn't exist in a vacuum. It exists in places where saying "no" to a request, even an onerous request that you have every right to refuse, exacts a social toll on the person refusing the request. Most people don't like awkwardness and don't like being perceived as rude or inhospitable, so if you live in a culture where refusing a request will lead to you being perceived that way, no matter how unreasonably, then you would probably resent being forced to saying no to requests. You might even end up saying "yes" to a few requests you would otherwise have said "no" to.

Guessers are not generally narcissistic, they are just trying to be considerate, trying to avoid placing a negative burden on your shoulders when they are the ones who want something.

Of course, if you are someone who doesn't have to pay $5 every time you say no to something, then all the incentives are misaligned and I can see why it's frustrating to deal with the guesser. But try to keep in mind that there are lots of people out there who really are paying that $5 every time.

I was raised in a hardcore guess culture, but now I have seen more of the world I have no problem asking for things directly so long as the person I am asking has no problem saying no. Without knowing that, I am still a guesser.

As someone from a guesser culture, being nice is refreshing. I enjoy giving surprises and not expecting something in return. It's different when you're at a dinner party and someone doesn't collaborate or collaborates very little, because we expect everyone to know about the shared burdens. The thing with this system is that it allows for more flexibility when everyone is on the same page! We're not narcicisstic, I swear!

> it allows for more flexibility when everyone is on the same page

Yes, but that qualifier is crucial, as the Metafilter post referenced upthread points out: "Guess behaviors only work among a subset of other Guess people -- ones who share a fairly specific set of expectations and signalling techniques. The farther you get from your own family and friends and subculture, the more you'll have to embrace Ask behavior."

In fact, as the scenario described in the Metafilter thread shows, even sharing considerable background doesn't always make Guess work. The wife and the friend in the scenario were from the same home town and knew each other's families, but the wife's attempts to hint, in Guess fashion, that the friend wasn't a welcome visitor didn't take, and now the wife and husband are struggling with the (necessary in this case) switch to Ask behavior (or more precisely the correct Ask response, which is to Just Say No instead of hinting).

> Why would you presume you know what I want?

I'm in the same boat as k__ above. Some have been indoctrinated into an "asking is wrong" culture.

On my job, if you ask:

* You're given a rude response. * You're treated like an idiot. * You're told you're wasting the other person's time.

and many other less than ideal responses.

Given these reactions enough, one can get tired of it (or angry, or ashamed depending on your personality), and just begin to avoid the situation entirely by guessing.

Then of course when you guess wrong, see the above points.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

In my first job as an adult, my boss did this to me all of the time. I'd go into his office to ask him something and he'd tear me apart. He'd ask deeper questions and just make me feel stupid for not knowing things.

It definitely changed how I approach that stuff now and, as I've expressed in another comment, for the worse in some people's eyes. I have gotten reprimanded for NOT asking questions a couple times in more recent years and I'm confused as hell which is the right way to go with it.

My approach now adays is, if it's something I know to some degree or think I can find an answer to it, timebox to a small amount of digging before asking someone. It's imperfect and I wish there was a better solution but the only real solution seems to be expecting other people to be more gracious with my asks and there's no real way to control another person's reactions so I just shy away from asking.

A good guesser should realize that "no" is always a possibility.

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