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Comment by willcipriano | Hacker News Reader

Problem: People are leading unfulfilled lives and reporting they are depressed.

My solution: Recenter your life around your family unit, do more physical activity, get off social media. Build a life worth living.

The solution we went with: Take some pills so you can manage the horror of your disconnected life devoid of meaning and purpose.

Problem: Energetic young boys are having trouble sitting in school for hours on end.

My solution: Focus more on hands on activities, bring back woodshop and metalshop, include more breaks for physical activity during the day.

The solution we went with: Get the boys so high on stimulants they can sit still like the girls.

It's easier (and more profitable) to feed people pills than to build a society that people are happy in so that's what we do, but hey the line went up!

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> The solution we went with: Get the boys so high on stimulants they can sit still like the girls.

This is a bit inaccurate. ADHD is diagnosed more in boys than girls, but is way, way more debilitating than being energetic to the point where they may be incredibly dangerous in a woodshop or metalshop. It's not being able to keep track of each tool being used, or the order in which to use them. It's forgetting to turn machines off, and forgetting to unplug dangerous equipment. It's turning around to grab something and forgetting what you turned around for, and then forgetting the task you were doing before you realized you were missing a part.

I would argue against treating ADHD like it's not a legitimate disability that requires accommodation. In the past, people with ADHD were just told they were stupid, lazy, or absentminded, when in reality they had a neurological disorder that had no diagnosis and no treatment at the time.

That being said I overall agree with the fact that society doesn't allow for breathing room for people to be people and form human relationships that doesn't have a financial or economic angle. This is horrendous, and no amount of therapy or medication will resolve this fundamental, societal-level problem. But ADHD is real, acting like ADHD treatment is just societal feminization of men is a completely incorrect depiction of the disorder. We can simultaneously argue that the medical system is completely fucked and also acknowledge that sometimes you really do need a surgeon to repair broken legs!

Source on those actions being associated with ADHD? I'm not arguing they are not but they seem extreme.

I am describing the basic experience of having ADHD.

ADHD is described as having difficulty with:

* paying attention

* listening closely

* following instructions

* organizing tasks in the workplace

* keeping track of physical objects

These are all things you need to do in a metal and woodshop!

Have you never sat down and talked to someone with ADHD describe their basic experiences? I know people with ADHD who literally need all of their things hung up on display on a wall or else they lose them. There is an extremely popular guide for organizing with ADHD that recommends tearing cabinet doors off cabinets because it's impossible to remember where things are once put away.

Here's a popular podcaster talking about having ADHD and needing accommodations, and goes deeply into his experiences with having ADHD and struggling to, for example, go to work on time because there are too many tasks to keep track of to go to work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToBxaBauF4M

Yep, it’s essentially an executive function disorder at its core. ADD/ADHD has always been a misnomer.

However, there is broad disagreement among professionals about the definition of Executive Function.

Perhaps the most respected clinical researchers/professors on the subject Dr. Russel A Barkley, devotes a sizable chunk of his book to the many contradictory definitions that exist in scientific lit.

https://www.guilford.com/books/Executive-Functions/Russell-B...

I bring this up to let space for discussion back into the topic. We shouldn't pretend like we have a full definition of ADHD or Executive Function Disorder. There are some aspects that receive wide agreement, a lot of pet theory unproven hypothesis being pushed around, and even more folklore disguised through scientific jargon.

> Have you never sat down and talked to someone with ADHD describe their basic experiences?

My answer to this is the same as 99% of peoples answer: no.

Genuinely asking: Why are you asking for a source, and describing the depiction of a neurodevelopmental disorder as extreme, if you yourself seem to have very limited knowledge about the condition? What is your background of knowledge you are trying to use to measure something described as a disorder as extreme or not?

Genuinely responding: Because it sounds extreme? You painted a picture of someone who is incompetent ("not being able to keep track of each tool being used, or the order in which to use them") and a danger to themselves and those around them ("they may be incredibly dangerous in a woodshop or metalshop" and "forgetting to unplug dangerous equipment"). That seems extreme to me, hence why I said "they seem extreme".

I have been in the company of people with ADHD at various stages throughout my life and this depiction doesn't fully align with my personal observations. From what I've experienced, individuals with ADHD do face challenges, but they are not universally incompetent or dangerous. They may struggle in some areas but excel in others. My ask for a source was to understand if this portrayal was based on a study or evidence, or if it was a personal observation.

I think you misunderstood my depiction as saying all ADHD people are universally incompetent or dangerous. I'm saying that forcing untreated, unaddressed, undiagnosed ADHD people in a metalshop and getting them to work with dangerous machinery instead of treatment is uniquely dangerous given how we know ADHD functions.

I also am shocked that you have apparently been in company of people with ADHD and you've never considered asking them how they experience their disorder. I mean, at minimum, it's important to ask how to accommodate them or if they'd like you to be considerate of anything in particular with respect to their disability. Can you explain how do you handle people who are in your circle and clearly have different positions than you do-- do you never ask them questions?

In your reply you said "I am describing the basic experience of having ADHD" so I don't think I have misunderstood you.

I can't continue this conversation as you are not commenting in good faith. You're "shocked" that I've never asked someone with ADHD to describe their condition? As I have already said, that puts me in the Most People camp.

People have different comfort levels with discussing their conditions and I have no reason to ask them. Just like I have never asked a wheelchair user any questions about them using a wheelchair.

NGL I'm shocked you never asked a wheelchair user about their experiences using a wheelchair. I'm quite surprised because, like, I have plenty of disabled friends and honest conversations on how to accommodate them are quite normal in my circles, especially when covid first started and even now as some friends are more vulnerable to covid than others. How do you accommodate your disabled friends if you never talk to them about what accommodations they need?

edited to add: I'm genuinely asking and have continued to behave in good faith. I have no idea what makes you think I'm not. You seem to be repeatedly misunderstanding my position which is weird: I'm shocked you have 1) interacted with disabled people in your life; 2) apparently never ask about their experiences or accommodations! I don't think that's at all in a "most people" camp.

Tbh that sounds like a lack of initiative on your part. Hearing out people's basic experiences is a good way to socially engage with people

Whatever you're doing now is not a good way to socially engage anyway.

eh, as someone with not-even-severe ADHD (it's fairly well-managed on a low dose of medication as long as I work out every day) those things seem normal to me---not good, and incredibly frustrating, but not uncommon.

I didn't take my meds yesterday because I'm not currently home so they're not in the same place they normally are and I forgot. I was going to go for a run, but by 8 am it was so hot I couldn't do it and just walked outside for a little while. I don't like taking my meds too late, and I wasn't working or really doing anything all day so I figured it was fine.

My partner did have to work yesterday, and she asked me to feed her mice. Their cage has four (maybe three? several) levels, each one with its own door. I opened the second door from the top to feed them, but they were on the top level so I ended up opening that door to feed them instead. I then happily went and fixed myself dinner.

I didn't notice I left the other door open until she came back an hour later. I'm just glad none of the mice escaped.

> The solution we went with: Get the boys so high on stimulants they can sit still like the girls.

love to be a woman with ADHD-PH and read this shit

Well, this is hackernews, one of the main nerd-to-incel-to-qanon pipelines. Misogynistic conspiracy theories fit right in.

bollocks. ain't no one talking about looksmaxxing or other incel-type terms. Too much money and education here, as a group mind you, as well.

> Problem: Energetic young boys are having trouble sitting in school for hours on end.

That's not the problem

> My solution: Focus more on hands on activities, bring back woodshop and metalshop, include more breaks for physical activity during the day.

Schools today seem to have more hands on activities and breaks for physical activities then they did when I was a kid in the 1980s; at least my kids' school certainly does.

While it helps some for ADHD (not its main purpose), it doesn't actually stop ADHD from being an issue for kids (not just boys) that have it. Individualized support helps more, and, where appropriate, medication helps even more.

> The solution we went with: Get the boys so high on stimulants they can sit still like the girls.

Getting high on stimulants doesn't make people more able to sit still.

Its true that some stimulants have a paradoxical effect that is the exact opposite of getting high in certain doses for people with ADHD, and this is leveraged therapeutically (not just boys), but, well, that's not the same thing.

ADHD isn’t the same as being energetic. Clinical depression isn't sadness.

except taking adderall felt like getting high to me not its opposite.

Then you likely don’t have ADHD, or didn’t take them for longer than a week or so.

Stop stop stop right there with energetic young boys theory. https://youtu.be/gQ-rttdz_PI?si=E80n2xXeRrVf_qHy watch this

> Build a life worth living.

Easier said than done. You need money and a job fore that. A job which makes many people miserable.

What was so much better about our parent's and grandparent's jobs?

I don't think you need all that much money to build a life worth living, at least in my experience.

They didn't have to work 120+ hours/week between them. Single-income households leave a lot more time for managing the family unit.

Grandpa lived through the Great Depression, and Great Grandpa would have had to work 7 days a week for 10 hours without any worker protections.

Then legislation got passed to make work not awful, and two World Wars happened that killed huge swathes of the prime working demographic -- 18-40 year old men -- and opened up the market for those who were left. That world doesn't exist anymore, and labor legislation is being peeled back.

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