No way in or out of Burning Man after storm
sfgate.com
sfgate.com
I’m curious: What’s your internet access setup there?
The requested URL was not found on this server. That’s all we know.
I promise you, the man will burn if the burners are at all dedicated to the cause. Dried wood only soaks a few millimeters of rain unless it's completely submerged for a very long time. Use an accelerant to get it started, and nature will do the rest.
Well, I cannot answer that, but I believe my hedge "if the burners are at all dedicated to the cause" still applies?
https://burningman.org/live-webcast/
The camera rotates randomly once in a while, so you can see everything. Not raining much, if at all. Some mud. Overcast. Maybe 75 people total are wandering around in the mud. A few random art installations. Everybody else is probably in the big RV park.
Looks boring, but not dangerous.
The Burning Man radio station, live on playa. I think they're right next to the livecam this year, but am not sure.
If you'd like up to date-ish info on the scene, BMIR is a good enough resource. Seems that most Burners are resigned to getting out on Tuesday at this point.
Exit road still unusable for non-offroad vehicles. Current plans are to reopen it on Monday 4 September. Sanitation trucks are now servicing porta-potties again. Comm, power, and emergency services are up.
The actual "burn" is now scheduled for 2100 Monday 4 September. Maybe.
Reno Airport does not have space for people who escape, but Reno hotels do.
"Participants are not being detained. ... The Burning Man organization’s advice is for participants to delay their departures to avoid getting stuck in the mud, but people are free to leave should they choose to do so."
"The online rumors of transmissible illnesses in Black Rock City are unfounded and untrue."
Burning Man: Police investigating death during heavy rain
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-66700006
An investigation has been launched into the death of a person during torrential rain at the Burning Man festival in the US state of Nevada.
No further details have been given about the circumstances of their death.
In a statement on Saturday, the Pershing County Sheriff's Office said it is "currently investigating a death which occurred during this rain event", and that the person's family had been notified.(Though it seems unlikely that a particular rainstorm could be attributed to climate change.)
I get that blocking the road isn't cool at the best of times, but feel this could've been handled better.
I'm not from the US, so had no clue who Rangers are (are they like police?). To me, at first they looked like hire a cop from the festival. While it looked like the first Ranger truck started a dialog, another decided to go a more violent route. There are a few cuts in the vid there, so it's not clear how long dialog was tried or what happened during that time and how justified the violent end was.
Coming from a country where police are generally pretty chill unless really provoked, how this was ended seemed extreme to me.
The comments in the vid kinda scare me tbh. It'll all fun and games, till you're at the receiving end, or someone dies.
* Bureau of Land Management law enforcement rangers https://www.blm.gov/programs/law-enforcement/what-we-do
are not the same thing as
* Black Rock Rangers, a self-organized volunteer safety team of Burners https://burningman.org/event/participate/volunteering/teams/...
And neither are the same thing as Pyramid Lake Paiute Tribal Police, which others have said is who is featured in the video. I have no idea. But the uniforms of the three different entities probably don't look much alike.
gasps!
If you try driving you'll get about 10 feet and then you'll sink up to the middle of the wheels.
As someone who is not there, but who has been there four times and run build lead for my camp...
Rain is not unheard of. It's probably pretty muddy and less fun than it normally would be.
Nobody is starving or dying of dehydration, and there is no danger of that. Most camps (and many people) have a huge surplus of supplies. Last time I was there, I drove out with a few dozen cans of sparkling water that I just didn't get to hand out.
There are PLENTY of supplies.
The worst thing that could happen is that somebody has a medical emergency and are unable to be evacuated until Monday/Tuesday. That's a real concern, but there are plenty of platforms that can land a helicopter if that's necessary.
This isn't the catastrophe calling for FEMA involvement that the article makes it sound like. :rolleyes:
With more rain slated for today and Sunday, and the fact that it ends on Monday, I wouldn't be so optimistic.
Kind of like if it was thin ice, but it’s actually (mildly) caustic mud.
That said, never tested this on that specific playa. It’s also usually somewhat location dependent even within a specific lakebed.
Don’t be surprised though if it takes months (next year? If there are followup storms) for some of these vehicles to be extracted.
Fun times!
Government involvement will incur a fee to the org. All the BLM LEO rolled off playa to avoid this.
An inch of rain isn't a big deal, but when you concentrate it 11:1 it becomes very serious very quickly.
Break a leg in front of the hospital? Super minor.
Break a leg 40 miles from the nearest road? Extremely serious.
Mud, especially with huge numbers of people, has a way of turning the former situation into the latter situation rather quickly.
Also who’s being breathless? The article didn’t mention FEMA.
No one is asking to fly in the military here or something. People are observing: “oh, that seems like a risky situation that could go very south very quickly.”
One advantage of everything being deep intractable mud - mud is soft! So less chance of compound fractures from a fall at least.
Though vehicle recovery is going to be epic. And that is a good way to break/kill people if not done very carefully.
I’ve seen (very expensive) vehicles end up completely destroyed and abandoned when someone wandered a bit too far out into a surprisingly wet/soft lakebed (around Ballarat/Trona - I can still see it on Google Maps, and it got stuck well over 20 years ago!), so I imagine we’ll have plenty of stories of drama to snack on popcorn over when this is all said and done.
-- when prompt attention is available.
falls are not the only cause of bone fracture.
Otherwise us humans would have a MUCH lower survival rate than we already do out in the wild.
Or as the paper notes “The etiology may be traumatic or, rarely, nontraumatic.”
Non-compound fractures can still cause serious issues if complicated somehow, or even long term loss of function of course if they aren’t set correctly, among other less than ideal chronic issues, which should be done ASAP.
But it’s not like someone is likely to die (or even suffer serious long term issues) from an uncomplicated ulnar fracture if they don’t get to the ER within a few days, for instance.
The amount of water I’m seeing come down in the Truckee area right now sure is epic though, so no question they are in for a ride!
nope. there is no prompt attention in the current situation
as noted in the paper incidence of fat embolism approaches 30%
many undiagnosed incidence are discovered post mortem.
you are attempting to minimize a dangerous situation.
===========
>> EPIDEMIOLOGY
The incidence of FES ranges from < 1 to 29% in different studies. It varies considerably according to the cause. The actual incidence of FES is not known, as mild cases often go unnoticed.
Bulger et al.,[3] in their retrospective study, reported an incidence of < 1%, while Fabian et al. in their prospective study, reported an incidence of 11–29%.[4] Surprisingly, the incidence was 0.9% when only clinical criteria were used to diagnose FES, whereas with the aid of postmortem examination the incidence was as high as 20%.[2] <<
2. Georgopoulos D, Bouros D. Fat embolism syndrome clinical examination is still the preferable diagnostic method. Chest. 2003;123:982–3.
3. Bulger EM, Smith DG, Maier RV, Jurkovich GJ. Fat embolism syndrome: A 10 years review. Arch Surg. 1997;132:435–9.
4. Fabian TC, Hoots AV, Stanford DS, Patterson CR, Mangiante EC. Fat embolism syndrome, prospective evaluation in 92 fractured patients. Crit Care Med. 1990;18:42–6.
The folks seeing higher rates are seeing them because their samples are coming from data sets with specific trauma backgrounds. Which is not surprising. If you look at postmortem results for people who died with broken bones, those folks all had severe issues! They died.
Probably none of them caused by getting their arm slammed in a car door, for example. Most likely caused by long falls off ladders, or car accidents, or industrial accidents, or getting beaten to death, or shot, or any number of traumatic events.
If you look at a dataset of all broken bones (which will be difficult to do frankly, as 90% of them won’t even show up in a database as they’ll be handled in an outpatient setting), the numbers will look wildly different.
In this situation if it was serious they’d just get medivac’d then. Which is not going to be difficult in this situation. If someone gets hit/run over with a vehicle, or hit by machinery, or has a giant pile of lumber collapse on them, or whatever, it’s not like anyone is going to tell them ‘oops, nothing we can do!’.
It’s mud. It makes walking and driving difficult. It isn’t going to make it hard for a helicopter with a decent pilot, especially with a helpful ground team. Reno has a very good medical center (several, actually).
there we go, good one.
A couple miles of hard-to-navigate terrain and a bit of hubris is plenty to kill someone.
Typically many medical issues are straightforward to triage and treat with field kits. Then the medics ask the person's friends to drive the person to Reno for more in-depth care.
Examples in my experience are twisted ankles, broken arms, alcohol sickness, dehydration, cardiac events, infections, lost prescriptions, overdoses, electrocutions, eye scratches, falls from heights, power tool slips, cold exposure, and of course burns.
This year, it turns out the timing of the rain makes for new kinds of challenges for the medics, because they're unable to use many of the transport vehicles that are akin to golf carts. And the medics are currently unable to refer people to Reno.
In a city of 70K+ people who planned for 5 days on average, now stuck for 3 more days because of the rain, estimate 50%+ more medical issues. And no way currently to drive to Reno.
In parallel, some generators will run out of gas supplies, some portas and bathrooms will run out of supplies and servicing, some heaters will run out of propane, etc. This combination tends to make people uneasy and somewhat irrational.
This is why shelter in place is important: it helps reduce accidents and injuries, and helps people to feel calm and think clearly. Help the medics and volunteers by staying put, being more careful than usual, and helping people as you can.
The advice to conserve supplies, and keep warm, is not because the whole city is likely to run out or freeze-- it's because medics want to minimize people wandering around the city seeking supplies, and want to keep people in good physical health and good mental health.
Not sure where I said "don't shelter in place". Not sure where I said "don't listen to people more experienced".
All I said is that nobody is going to starve or die of dehydration because they ran out of food/water. I stand behind that.
Just because the article is ridiculous does not mean I disagree with every single thing in there. I just think it's ridiculous, particularly in tone.
And also, I stand behind saying there's plenty of food and water. So, by all means "conserve food and water" if you want to, but saying that people "need" to is overstating the reality.
I believe the article is factually correct-ish, but is sensationalized and is spreading FUD and causing unnecessary potential panic.
That's why. I'm downplaying because it needs downplaying.
This wording is clear to me.
If this was in your original comment, I wouldn’t assume that you’re recommending to disregard safety measures.
Otherwise “ridiculous” or “:rolleyes:” are very ambiguous to me.
From what I gathered, you're both saying that the correct situation is to stay in place because there are enough supplies? The key is to reinforce that idea and downplay the risk as long as everyone listens. If the roads are muddy and miserable remember that the more experienced participants prepared for this. Staying with them, sheltering in place is your best bet. If you try to leave and not follow safety protocols and the experienced participants you're likely to get yourself into trouble.
While you two are arguing it seems to be on the angle of approach and not the outcome. At least that's what it seems like to me who honestly has no idea what's going on and only barely read the article.
"If you are in BRC, conserve food and water, shelter in a warm space,” warned festival organizers according to the Reno Gazette Journal. The news site reported that 73,000 people (a larger population than the city of Santa Cruz) are currently at the festival."
Which sounds like a reasonable reminder to not dump your water jugs and toss your remaining food in trash bags when you're packing up your camp because you may be there a few days longer than expected.
I'll delete my counterpoint word. My comment focuses on safety measures.
Next year, just watch craigslist or fb marketplace a month beforehand.
Going to Burning Man is something on my bucket list, which is why your comment surprised me, how can you say its peaked?
You should totally go if you get a chance, but to be clear Burning Man is not a music festival a la Glasto. It’s much more of an art festival than anything else, and it’s really spectacular.
Also just ignore the lore around anti-capitalism, eco friendly yada yada. It’s a really sick party for super rich people and the artists they patronize.
This year was different - it was super easy to get tickets, often at steep discount. I don't see why next year will be different, especially with horror stories getting off the playa this year.
This is a good thing! If you want to go, now you can.
It does attract some good DJ's though, I mean a $3-8m 70KW moving sound system/dance floor seems pretty awesome, aka the Mayan Warrior.
That really doesn't mean anything as far as the quality of the experience. It might even be better subjectively with less people. If it is something you really want to experience then go sooner rather than later though. I really loved BM when I was younger but I have aged out and it is pretty much the last thing I would want to do now. This mud just hammers that point home for me.
The article doesn't even say they are running out of supplies, other than the organizers have told people to conserve.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/9/3/death-under-investig...
>Trapped in Mud, Burning Man Attendees Are Told to Conserve Food
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/02/us/burning-man-storm-floo...
Also, one death per year is typical.
--------
2010: A man died in his tent from carbon monoxide poisoning due to a propane heater.
2011: A woman died from injuries sustained in a tent fire.
2012: A man was found dead in his tent; the cause was not publicly disclosed.
2014: A woman was struck and killed by a bus carrying festival participants.
2015: A man died from a fall at his campsite.
2017: A man ran into a fire and died from burn injuries.
2018: A man was found unresponsive in his vehicle and later pronounced dead; the cause was not publicly disclosed.
2019: A death was reported, but the cause was not publicly disclosed.
Also, it’s not that remote. Diplo and Chris Rock walked 5 miles out of the site and got picked up and driven back so while the situation does suck, it’s not like they are alone in the great white north 100 miles from civilization. It’s off a road only a few miles.
Baking soda (Sodium bicarbonate) is something like pH 8, sodium carbonate (What you get if you put bicarbonate in the oven at 400 degrees for an hour or so) is something like ph 10-11, and is a large component of alkalai soils. [1] You probably won't have a problem with baking soda but the more basic form of it (as we call 'washing soda') is definitely something you don't want on your skin for long periods of time. I suggest making some in the oven to soak some soiled socks or something you have - but careful breathing the dust in, you'll notice that it's way sharper on your nose than baking soda.
PH is around 10
In Black Rock specifically, they're also setting up camp on a literal dried-up lake bed, so when the playa floods it turns back into a huge, muddy lake.
That said, I’d bet a sizable fraction of the attendees are completely unprepared or dependent on others to get them ready. Probably people will share extra supplies with them. Maybe this entire event will expose just how commercialized it’s gotten.
No one will even remember this was a story by Thursday.
Friend had a rubbermaid food bin he used for camping. One time on a walkabout he decided to eat all of it and see how long it lasted him. Lasted three weeks.
Looks empty. Either few got in or most left.
A combination of heavy rain, bad soil and bridges being floated away, splitting the event into two.
It resulted in a song how the helpless white collar proletariat lost its self esteem to dirt. Otherwise, was fun.
You had to walk for a mile heels deep through dirt field which featured a stranded UAZ 4x4 van in the middle.
Next year, they built these massive arched wooden bridges and urged people to stay clear of bridge and keep walking, which gave plot for another song.
Latter is https://youtu.be/KGymzHBALdU?si=T_ZkOWhatPSFyvGI - anachronistic since I would expect it to be about 2010 event.
There's a video from the event, though: https://youtu.be/yIfGwYKPj2Q?si=6UUg5SepczrDME6E
Don't shit in standing water. Don't walk in water you just shit in. Currently everyone is surrounded by water. Shitting in a hole is just shitting in the water you're walking in.
- Large portion has no mobile phone coverage
- Areas with so much rain that it is like mud + quicksand (no experience with this, is this the case?)
- Heavy rain + clay makes shoes stick with each step
- No lights
- Some people have gone to burning man with children (didnt know this was possible) https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/09/01/2023-b...
- Rain continues so unclear if the better decision is to stay put vs walk
- 70,000 people stuck
So you're suggesting people just leave everything there and walk 5 miles to the road and get a ride home. Maybe come back later to see if anything is left?
Do not travel to Black Rock City! Access to the city is closed for the remainder of the event, and you will be turned around.
11:48 AM · Sep 2, 2023
"Please do NOT drive at this time. Road conditions differ based on the neighborhood. We will update you on the driving ban after this weather front has left the area.
It will hamper Exodus if we have cars stuck on roads in our camping areas, or on the Gate Road out of the city. PLEASE don’t be that person. The roads will dry. The issue is NO LONGER ruining the roads (that is the concern before we start the event), but once we are in Exodus we need the roads to be clear, and not to have vehicles blocking traffic flow."
(If you brought them along on a spare set of rims and swapped them when it became clear what weather was coming)
Usually paddle tires (the ones with scoops) are used in sand, not mud.
I’ve never been. But the feeling of being stranded with no possible way of leaving would have me going crazy in about 3 hours.
But why rain? There's a road leading up there, right? (or at least somewhere near the festival grounds). Most people will come by car or RV. They can still drive on that road I'd think?
If the festival grounds turn to mud, well... maybe a little detour to get back on that road.
(personally I'd be in no hurry to leave. But if you wanted to, what's holding you back? Organisers saying "road closed"?)
One of my long term thoughts about the event is the BLM really needs to require those guys to buy and install ground protection mats to put on their gate road. Probably cost $300k for a mile of the stuff or $10 per participant.
Edit: I seem to have touched a soft spot lol.
I would not, and a puerile "but hey started it" doesn't help your case. Noise is noise.
Was no fun.
Chakra, when the rains fell.
You need the Hiraishin no jutsu to get out of the desert.
The drugs on the other hand? Those might run out well before the food and leave everyone coming down with nothing to do but stare at the mud.
And, yes, some of us Americans will never starve even if food prices go up 10,000%. I wouldn't doubt Home Depot and Costco stocks blip up for the quarter due to the vast "non-consumerism" consumerism preceding said event.
Waivers and disclaimers are not a defense against negligently creating a risky situation.
Note I'm not saying I endorse this, just expecting it to happen based on the history of US civil law.
Yes they are. People know the risks and choose to go, it's that simple as far as I can see.
I think any case would be dismissed outright. Although IANAL so maybe not.
Not really. Event organizers are required to ensure their venue is safe, regardless of the public perception.
@dang can you take HN down for 24 hours so everyone chills? Feels like everyone needs a time-out.
Yes, I know this comment is against the rules… but at least I’m not attacking or misreading someone’s comments.
as a reminder nevada has a national guard and The Chinook is a heavy-lift helicopter that is among the heaviest lifting Western helicopters. we have rescue airboats, amphibious LVTP and even airlift capabilities throughout the nevada desert at various military installations. theres absolutely no reason to "conserve food and water."
casual reminder: tickets for this event are $750 including parking. the idea that help is not on the way (even if it isnt immediately necessary) is a little ridiculous to consider. the event has the potential to cause famine, disease, dehydration and death right now. NV has chosen to make no real effort regardless. no activation or regional planning, just thoughts and prayers.
Seems like the reason is so folks can get through the next couple of days without involving the National Guard, which is costly. No one's dying; it's just muddy and unpleasant.
Whether this turns into something requiring external help or evacuation depends on what portion of the attendees really are on top of their shit in 2023.
2. Technically it's not even in Nevada, it's in the Pyramid Lake Paiute Indian Reservation
3. Kind of the entire point of Burning Man is that you are raising a city out of nothing and breaking it down again within the span of a couple weeks against all odds and in one of the least hospitable places on the planet. This is by design. As a participant you are given ample information and time to plan for such eventualities, they are not necessarily predictable but you definitely can and should be prepared for the worst out there. To be blunt, this is what they signed up for. It's a prepper-lite ("radical self-reliance" is one of the founding principles) kind of event. I say this as someone who really enjoyed my time there in past years -- everyone is welcome to attend if they feel up for it, but they are also expected to know what they're getting into and to carry their own weight if things get bad. Not that they will be left to die, as "civic responsibility" is another of the principles embodied by the population of Black Rock City for its duration.
Protip for interested readers: anyone calling Burning Man a "festival" outs themselves as having absolutely no idea what they're talking about and are perpetuating the kinds of narratives that contribute to the flippant and commercialized miasma that has settled around the event over the past years.
so, because taxpayers and revenue have paid for billions of dollars in toys the event-goers should not roll with the punches; 'go ahead and have a great time -- we have a Chinook en route!'
Going to a concert/event/commune/experience isn't some mandatory thing; and the weather isn't somehow unexpected, although it is severe. This isn't the same situation as a typical emergency scene. The comparison to costs of Western war efforts drawn is ridiculous.
Now, if legitimate personal emergencies emerge from the lack of travel access, sure. Roll the services out -- let's save lives; but rain and loss of travel access by itself doesn't constitute the same urgency.