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Comment by LVB | Hacker News Reader

My son just started middle school, and quickly we were hit with a new salvo of requests for a smartphone. Rather than immediately provide reasons why not, we've decided to turn it around and have him explain what he wants a smartphone for (he already has access to a flip phone he can take to school). Most things were met with "Can't you use your Chromebook or iPad for that?" Very soon he was sort of sheepishly left with "playing games at lunch" and "because my friends have one," which even he admits aren't great reasons.

It's not a fun conversation and he isn't happy, but I feel like this time around it was a bit more productive and less of the vibe that we're just saying no to be mean.

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> "because my friends have one," which even he admits aren't great reasons

He’s still feeling left out though. That’s one of the worst experiences for any human being of any age anywhere. Rational thinking and justifications cannot solve or permanently remove these emotions, more so at a younger age (I’m not dismissing your son or implying that younger kids cannot have greater awareness and rationality).

I feel sad that he doesn’t have a smartphone (even a locked down one with some restrictions).

> He’s still feeling left out though.

It’s not just feeling left out. It’s literally being left out. Tons of socializing happens on phones, like it or not. An 8-10 year old will be able to tell you which classmates have a “crappy” phone or no no phone. Just ask them.

I personally think it sucks and it’s a huge burden on people that aren’t well off, but that’s the way it is.

Having an iPad can provide a lot of the same social value, since you can still use social media or instant messaging apps. Only a minority of the social value that you can't get from a flip phone comes from being able to use it during the school day, IMO.

Although a flip phone with a good keyboard would be preferable, so quick typing is easier.

But life is full of being left out. An argument can be made that it's good to learn how to deal with it when you're young.

“Because my friends have one” is one of the absolute best reasons for a middle schooler. It just doesn’t sound like a good reason to an adult. If the other kids are all playing a game the one without a phone is left out.

It's a bit funny that at the same time it doesn't sound good reason to an adult, it is one of the main reasons adults buy all kind of stuff themselves. Keeping up with Joneses...

Nothing like finishing a conversation with your child about the lack of need for a smartphone then jumping into your financed 2023 BMW SUV when a 1987 Toyota would fulfil the requirements.

Because it’s not about the price. And you’re the adult, you earn the money, you’re not required to share a fixed percentage of income with your children.

Still not a reason for parents to follow. Replace "smartphone" with "heroin" or "taser" and ask the same question.

Then it makes no sense. If most middle schoolers have heroin and tasers we are talking about a very different situation.

Another issue is group chats. In my middle school (in US), people started planned events / set up hangouts / got to know people better over group chats. The people who didn't have phones were just heard of less often. I think having some type of phone is useful for that. Then having honest conversations with your kid about the responsibility that comes with it. My parents were relatively free range with me about things, and I respect them for it. They never set parental controls on my devices, never enforced downtime from screens, never stopped me from doing something on a device because I wanted to. By high school I was tinkering with computers and doing tons of side projects just for fun. I think they recognized my love for tech at a young age and let me run with it. Now I'm in my last year of school doing Industrial engineering and computer science, and tech has always been integral to my success.

I think you should have honest conversations with the kid about what you think is the good and bad about having phones, then share with them personally how you've felt while using it. There are times tech can be awful, but also times it can be really helpful.

Currently the iPad has been filling that role for the most part. His peers seem to be on iPhone/iMessage, so he’s able to participate in those group chats after school. This seems to be sufficient for now. If anything, I’m hearing from him about the kids who don’t have any access to iMessage as being more left out.

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