My child is grown but grew up during the iPhone era.
Anyway, I had a policy.
It lasted until middle school.
Then we had a conversation.
And worked things out together.
That's my recommendation because in the long run, conversation and negotiation are the only tools you really have.
Good luck.
----
Appendix:
1. FOSS is your value. Your child is not you. If your child thinks FOSS is cool, it's cool. If they think it is lame, you are being lame.
2. Parental controls are only as good as someone else's parents. Your child can look at naked people on someone else's phone.
3. Around middle school, your child's peers begin to have massive importance. It is not that you cease to be important. But you are going to have to share influence. Even if you try to forbid such sharing.
4. It is better if parents grow as their children grow. Growing is on you because you are the adult.
Yup, don't turn them into a pariah due to the color of chat bubbles (not having iPhone-colored bubbles was recently a major social problem for American teenagers). The color of a bubble might seem stupid to someone dealing with the issues of the adult world, but social issues is basically/hopefully the extent of problems that kids face.
That being said, parents have been successfully imparting values to their children for millennia. If you believe that using FOSS is important (I happen to agree) then you should have no issues convincing your child the same. Maybe they'll end up using Linux on their laptop, while prioritizing the color of chat bubbles on their phones. You can only give them the tools and knowledge to make the right choices, you can't make choices for them.
Sorry if I am missing something painfully obvious here.
My daughter did get a feature-phone in middle school and then a smartphone in high school. I never set any limits - but I was fortunate to have a child who managed her time exceptionally well. I wonder how much of that came from her not having smartphone exposure when young.
I do feel for parents today.
I had many problems, but generic “screen time” was never one of them.
But in hindsight I'm extremely thankful for the limitation. A computer stops being a social channel when it's offline so the hours I spent offline were pretty crucial for me to learn a variety of things - from learning how to code to creating art.
It also really did force me to go outside and learn about the world that way.
Even though you may not have had that much, health benefits are definitely there.
Especially for any older parent to young kids, taking steps to optimise your own longevity is pretty much acting responsibly the way I see it.
I did it nearly three years ago primarily for longevity reasons, but the role modelling aspect is starting to dawn on me. My 13 year old son has at least one parent (I'm divorced) who doesn't need alcohol to survive various settings - I think he'll have a much more conscious approach to it.
One of my biggest fears is him getting into a car with a drunk kid driving. Have already started to talk to him about it, even though he's likely years away from it being a possible thing.
So much this. Kids are living, breathing, thinking human beings. They are immature yes. But that doesn't remove the value of their opinions or their agency. And it's not to say you give them everything they want, but that you find common ground and aren't seen as dictating things without reason. If you can explain your point of view in terms they understand, compliance is far more likely.
For the most part, my kids have unlimited access to electronics and the internet. Yeah, sometimes they watch stupid TikTok videos or silly toy reviews on Youtube. Other times they are learning how to code or learning how to knit or how to make slime from common household materials, etc. Last week I baked bread with my daughter because she found a recipe on TikTok she wanted to try out. They sometimes watch content I don't like or agree with, but often that's resolved just by talking about why I don't think it's good content or sending a good message. I've talked to both of my daughters about why I don't like SSSniperWolf content as an example. Usually this works out fine, but none of the things they watch are so egregious I feel like I need to cut them off. And who am I to judge the occasional mindless entertainment when I've always done the same and I can readily see it's a small portion of the content they are consuming?
When I hear folks talking about zero access and no smart devices until X years, I have to ask myself where the trust and relationship exists between these parents and their children. I just can't imagine not having enough of a relationship with my kids to not have a good understanding of what they are up to online and how they are perceiving it. I can't imagine not being able to trust the values that I've instilled in my children and having to cut them off from the world to hide that neglect. Further, I feel these sort of blanket bans put kids into a position where they feel they need to hide what they do from their parents online which is the absolute opposite of what they should be thinking.
That said, we do have restrictions. No electronics during dinner or shared entertainment sort of things. People scrolling social media during movie time is a pet peeve of mine. The electronic devices are not an escape from small talk during boring family dinners or the slow part of the show we're watching.
I'm not judging, to be clear. I think that's a healthy policy. I was just curious since humans are great liars and bad lie detectors.
I've also experienced that this extension of trust is reciprocated. One time my son was hanging out with some of his friends after high school. He's not one to make friends easily and this was one of the few times he went out on an "adventure" like this. They did typical teenage boy hooligan stuff. He was comfortable enough to tell me about what they had gotten up to so we were able to have a discussion around it and I explained the likely outcomes of continuing down that sort of path. At some point that "harmless fun" can become a lot less harmless and have real consequences. I didn't have to ground him or ban him from seeing those kids again. He took the lesson and ran with it. I'd never want my son to feel like he has to hide something like that from me, and I feel if you're going too authoritarian you corrode the trust that let's them be honest with you. When my kids are in trouble, I want them to think of me as a possible solution and not someone they have to hide it from instead.
Again, I won't claim to be any sort of expert on this. I parent like anyone else. As best we can with the tools we're given. My sample size is small with 9, 11 (10 & 12 this month!), and and 18 year old. But I know for a fact I would never have told my parents about any shenanigans I got up to and I'm having conversations with my kids that I couldn't have imagined having with my parents. We never had that sort of relationship.
When they are blind to something that you can plainly see is a net-negative for their life it seems like it would be much harder to not intervene.
I'm not speaking as someone who has lived this but I have observed a close family member who very much has the relationships and parenting style you're describing and I've watched this parent go through incredibly challenging situation after situation as her kids have grown into teenagehood (covid really did a number on kids coming of age). It's not that her kids are bad either, a tad naive perhaps, but genuinely good kids.
How is this different from literally any other social interaction in your life? I extend folks the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise as a general rule. The same policy applied to my children has had fantastic results for the past 18 years. Should distrust and suspicion be the default? No thanks, I’d rather like to have a meaningful relationship with them continue long after they become self sufficient.
I already explained this in the original comment?
1. Technology and screen time aren't the problems; it's the lack of passion and interests that is the root problem. Cultivate passion in your child and expose them to new things. You'll immediately notice a positive change in how they use their screen time to pursue these interests. When they watch gaming videos or unboxing on youtube they do that because that's their current passion.
2. Your control over your children diminishes over time. Build trust early on and allow them to make mistakes; these are invaluable teaching tools. It's better to teach them good habits concerning technology while you still have influence, rather than later when your control is limited.
3. There are real costs associated with not allowing your child largely unrestricted access to technology. These costs include social drawbacks, a significantly reduced ability for them to explore their passions independently, and long-term tension between the child and the parents due to a lack of trust.
Hard disagree. Many passions and interests take time to develop, and a big way they (used to, at least) develop naturally is through boredom. I remember well when I was a kid in the 80s who would get bored with my friends in the summer, and so we'd go and build forts or explore (illegally I guess) houses that were still under construction. A lot has been written about "the death of boredom" because smartphones are always there to give you that little dopamine fix to keep boredom at bay.
I agree with the general thrust of your post (technology is pretty unavoidable, and I've never seen a case where parents have been successful "hiding their kids from the real world" past a certain age), but I do think technology has had a severe negative impact on the mental development of youths since the advent of the smartphone, similar to how modern diets have had a severe negative impact to the development of their bodies.
I'm not advocating for unrestricted technology use; rather, I'm pushing for a more nuanced approach. I acknowledge that technology, when misused, can have negative impacts, much like poor dietary habits can have physical repercussions. However, the focus should be on the quality of engagement over simply counting screen time. Guide your children towards finding their passions and setting corresponding goals. This will foster intrinsic motivation, helping them utilize their time more effectively—whether you are present or not.
This is not an argument defending screen time, just recognizing that it is a difficult problem with no easy solutions.
Could not disagree more.
“No dad, I don’t want to go fishing together. I need complete this raid in Clash of Clans.
FOSS is the software author's value. It correlates with the author's intentions, their incentive and the software's shape and influence on the user – your child. It's a way to delineate content you want your child to see and that which you don't (and thus we circle back to the idea that you imposing a policy ultimately means imposing your values anyway).
> And worked things out together.
You make it sound so simple. What if your kid simply doesn't listen? They are smart, so they know that if they keep nagging, they will eventually get what they want.
I mostly mindlessly watched Minecraft youtube videos, lets play videos, and would occasionally play some mobile game.
Pros: - Developed my vocabulary by listening to adult conversation (commentators) - Became adept with technology by getting familiarity with navigating the internet and jailbreaking the devices - Became a fast typer - Was able to easily make friends who watched similar YouTubers
Cons: - Difficulty focusing - Became impulsive as having instant access to technology is a form of instant gratification that was drilled into me - Learned every swear at 6 years old - Discovered porn at 7 years old
Regardless, I do think I turned out fine. I was a straight-A student throughout my entire K-12 education, made plenty friends, and have maintained an ambitious outlook on my career.
Kids definitely have a different(extreme.. worse..) experience today, I'm not going to argue with that. But I think I was 5 when I started going long stretches of the day with no parental involvement and large amounts of device time. When I was 12 I got a modem, and was suddenly exposed to porn, online socializing and trolling, underground culture, pirated games, etc. For large stretches of time it was basically all I did outside of poorly performing at school.
48yo today means you were 20yo in 1995, so already an adult by the time porn and pirated games were a thing?
Not trying to gotcha, but I'm left with the only possible conclusion: you spent your university years exposed to porn, trolling and pirated games! :-)
http://allowe.com/games/larry/tips-manuals/lsl1-age-quiz.htm...
Around 1990 I started getting on the Internet via a hacked dial-in of a local UC school for which I was eventually caught, charged and did probation for (along with other computer crimes). I had 3(or 3 1/2, I forget) years probation where I was supposed to avoid computers but eventually violated it with a dumb terminal and modem I got cheap(my computers were confiscated when my parents' home was raided).
i don't see myself as "impulsive" like you describe. I got online when i was 8 and have been online since that day. its been so long...
a few years ago we were talking something and the idea was "internet gets boring after a while" and i responded almost instantly "the buzz i felt the very first time i opened a website, i still get that all these years later, every single time".
instant access to information i'd say. not technology. in the first 5-8 years, there was no facebook or whatever and i had learned the mantra "lurk moar" so it was always a one sided "uh... how about reading about skateboarding" or "what's the nazkca lines" because i saw on TV.
i would read something in books or on tv or newspaper and i could summon the internet and give me more details.
i don't see that as instant gratification but satiety at looking for information and getting it. you have an encyclopedia open at any page so you are being given the data you requested.
instant gratification is in regards to imo the whole social media, twitter, facebook, tiktok.
does anyone become "addicted to wikipedia" for example?
Why read when you can watch. Why play with toys when you can play video games.
Not trying to say that watching YouTube or playing video games is bad - (they can be just as educational imo) but what happens is your overall standard for gratification gets raised. This increased standard makes what should be normal tasks become mundane. The overall effect of which is compulsion to avoid the mundane task.
Sounds like your experience was with the internet as a knowledge tool. Currently, id argue it’s a time-sink and mind-sink for the majority of people.
p.s I don’t have adhd/autism if that’s what you’re thinking.
I can assure you that he/she is not fine.
Knowing about sex is not some horrible fate we have to go through, I don't understand this perspective.
And yes, +1000 for a larger vocabulary!
No social media apps on the phone. Parental control (iOS) so need Parent permission before installing apps
At home most/almost every non-professional social media is blocked via pi-hole
I’m not on FB, Instagram, Snapchat, TikTok etc. I think this is very very important for the above since kids see that parents are also not on social media. Most people, IMHO, run into trouble when they use it but want to restrict kids.
This mostly worked for a kid who just went to college. Will see if it works for the other.
Edit: have Switch and PS5, but multiplayer internet games are not allowed. Offline games only.
Edit2: I occasionally remote login into computers to tell the kids that I can do that. I think/hope it reduces temptation.
So it worked. If there had been much push back for a game, I would have dug deeper.
At the very least, conversations can be rather profanity laden and so can be the user names.
Even in multiplayer games without chat/audio, the other players will find creative ways to exhibit behaviors I find intolerable for my kids.
Does it mean online games are more addictive for kids or affect them worse than offline games? probably not. But I have observed (many) kids who can power thru single player games tend to be more unyielding on other tasks.
Roblox is in a class of its own compared to fortnite and minecraft in terms of toxic monetisation.
Online gaming is definitely a tough one to navigate though, regardless. I had no problems as subscription was the limit to paying when I was a kid, but now it's a generation raised with mtx.
Servers can be bad, but that is entirely optional. Not even close to Roblox or Fortnite.
This is coming from a person that basically grew up with it from the Alpha stage.
It's certainly some of those things!
DLC tied to 3rd party IP (bonus advertising!):
https://www.minecraft.net/en-us/article/batman-dlc-swoops-mi...
https://www.eurogamer.net/dungeons-dragons-dlc-heading-to-mi...
Limited time events with exclusive content to make kids feel like shit if they don't/can't login at certain dates/times:
https://www.minecraft.net/en-us/article/discover-summer-cele...
https://www.minecraft.net/en-us/article/star-wars-celebratio...
In-game ads:
https://www.blockchaingamer.biz/news/16967/relentlo-brings-i...
It's unclear to me if any of their events or DLC includes loot boxes (mere chances to acquire certain content) or not. if they haven't done that, I give them credit
I'm also not sure how much direct advertising Microsoft does in-game. Have they worked with ad companies like this to promote third party or non-game content? https://www.adweek.com/creativity/minecraft-built-a-colossal...
I'm sure it's not as bad as Roblox or Fortnite but Microsoft does not have clean hands here either.
You want to give the kids Java edition which has none of this crap.
If you know a place to get an offline installer that doesn't require an account though I'd love to give it a try and see how the Java edition holds up!
Now I know to be a bit more careful when recommending the game without specifying huh.
Buy your kids pay once games with no IAPs. Teach them to keep a wish list and wait for sales :)
Unfortunately in the current social media, the choice is between letting the kids wade in cesspool of crap and hope they find some lotuses, or support them in person till they are mature enough.
It’s a hard decision. I made the one above.
Edit: to clarify, if my kid ever comes to me as queer or whatever, I’ll make sure to find in-person connections that can help. Relying on social media still feels a little iffy. I’m really glad you were able to find meaningful connections. I have a feeling not everyone is as lucky as you.
Unfortunately, the BBS and even forums of the past (and those that are alive today) were very focused and had less crap. I used to spend a lot of time on Slashdot and find very civil conversations even today in many focused forums (cars, AV equipment, coffee, DPReview, coding related etc etc) Reddit has some corners like thar.
Shit, I talk to other functioning adults in their 20s and 30s and they tell me they too watched the same garbage.
I think you might have rose tinted glasses on to be honest. The Internet was just as wild back then.
I remember two of my classmates being addicted to World of Warcraft. They both got problems, one dropped out, one managed to turn around. Today every smartphone game and the social networks are at least as addictive as WoW. Some people will manage it but some won’t. I don’t know if OPs way to handle it would be the way I handled it but A I don’t have a better idea an B I don’t have kids (yet).
I met my spouse online and a lot of my generation did. I too met a lot of friends online first. But the exploits and weirdness and threat vectors on the interwebs today is just very different.
At what age though? Were you 18+ or younger?
Re friends - In late 90s and early 2000s I was in my late teens and early 20s. I was on the interwebs since age 15 or 16 in ~1995
Re spouse, age 27 in 2006 on Lavalife. There were a lot of creeps on dating sites then, but not nearly as many professional scammers as today.
I guess some of us do value our privacy and want to impart that to our kids.
I’m old-er :D
I had a few gay friends in high school, and we all knew it. No one really cared. Didn't require smartphones as they didn't exist.
It's not a fun conversation and he isn't happy, but I feel like this time around it was a bit more productive and less of the vibe that we're just saying no to be mean.
He’s still feeling left out though. That’s one of the worst experiences for any human being of any age anywhere. Rational thinking and justifications cannot solve or permanently remove these emotions, more so at a younger age (I’m not dismissing your son or implying that younger kids cannot have greater awareness and rationality).
I feel sad that he doesn’t have a smartphone (even a locked down one with some restrictions).
It’s not just feeling left out. It’s literally being left out. Tons of socializing happens on phones, like it or not. An 8-10 year old will be able to tell you which classmates have a “crappy” phone or no no phone. Just ask them.
I personally think it sucks and it’s a huge burden on people that aren’t well off, but that’s the way it is.
Although a flip phone with a good keyboard would be preferable, so quick typing is easier.
--
I think you should have honest conversations with the kid about what you think is the good and bad about having phones, then share with them personally how you've felt while using it. There are times tech can be awful, but also times it can be really helpful.
Gave unlimited books and magazines.
Elementary school- bought an iPad with screen time and “no devices upstairs” (all bedrooms were upstairs). 30 minutes on school days, 60 minutes on weekend. Wi-Fi rules to shut off at night. Pihole to block porn and YouTube.
Middle school got laptops with same controls. And a gaming pc in the living room.
No instagram until 13. This was hard because all other kids got at 10 or earlier. Am trying to push this to 16 with later children.
High school- same laptop, little more screen time and later Wi-Fi turnoffs.
Phones with data when they have jobs and can afford to pay directly.
Hard to tell if this “works.” Have done some tests of how much screen time and apps and behavior was very different for the worse with more screen time. Things like more arguments. Less time creating art or playing in person with friends with more screen time.
Maybe I’ve got brain worms because I had more or less unrestricted internet access since the time I was able to use a computer, but it feels like it wasn’t overly harmful.
I spent far more than an hour behind a screen and I think I’m better off for that time. I spent a lot of time learning to program, learning mathematics, and consuming general knowledge content via things like vsauce, scishow, minute physics, cgp grey, crash course, etc.
However, I also spent a lot of time on reddit which I’m certain wasn’t ideal for my social development. I understand this case may not be typical and maybe not even reproducible given the addictive content machines like tik tok, reels, and shorts, but I think having the freedom I had was a net positive.
I saw plenty of violence and sex earlier than I should have, but like you said I feel the internet is a different beast these days. At the time, it was merely an unrefined double-edged sword of time wasting and free information. Now it is more addictive, filled with experiences designed by morally degenerate PhDs to prey upon our basest psychological weaknesses to make money for megacorps.
I have the opposite experience.
- I've been addicted to pornography since I was 12.
- Late computer use caused me to never get enough sleep.
- Programming early started my career, but it also isolated me socially.
YouTube and Tik Tok scare me; as a grown-up, I can still waste hours just swiping and swiping. I suspect that getting this behavior early on will make you more docile. My siblings raise their kids with tablets, and it impacts their learning ability and sociability tremendously.different set of norms but just different
abstinence only education doesn't work, no need to become your parents just because of a new thing to have a knee jerk reaction to
They have lots of other things to do, too, of course. We have a Switch, Xbox, trampoline, swimming pool, hot tub, and a neighborhood full of other kids their age. They would probably spend more time on YouTube than I'd prefer if I didn't put a cap on it, but it's been basically fine so far. We do have a rule against iPads in bedrooms with closed doors, though that is starting to relax a bit with the 12 year old.
Kids grow, you kinda have to roll with it and adjust to fit the situation. You can't keep them innocent forever, and if you try, you will not get the well adjusted adult you're aiming for. We have some family who are hard core home schoolers (for religious reasons) and it turns out a disaster more often than not. They're so worried about public school indoctrination but are then surprised to find their own kids refuse to be indoctrinated at home.
But my kids' school doesn't allow kids to wear smartwatches (and I can imagine why — distractions, possible cheating, etc.). Have you dealt with restrictions like these?
The middle school has a no smartphone, no headphone policy, but they don't single out smartwatches. From their discussion points on why they have the rules they do, I imagine it won't be a problem as long as my daughter continues to abide by the 'do not text during class' rule. They're not trying to lock down the school, just eliminate distractions during class.
These days we have a lot of medical apps from calorie counters to continuous blood glucose monitor apps for diabetics, which prevent a lot of deaths.
What is the take on kids that need a phone for these things at school in the US?
I didn’t have custody over my own bank account or a debit card until I graduated high school. I purchased my first smartphone, a Google Nexus 4, and prepaid data plan after my first semester of community college (circa 2012).
The first iPhone was released in 2007 when I was 13. I’m 29 now. My family never had to confront the question OP prompted in a social climate like we have today and I’m thankful for that.
My father’s parenting style was fantastic but it wasn’t ideal (given that ideals are unattainable). But his handling of the phone situation is something I intend on recreating with my own children some day.
1) It's much more nuanced than you're making it out to be. There are a lot of studies that show overuse of phones ("phone addiction") is bad for academic performance. Going beyond that runs into some serious correlation/causation problems. For example, children in lower income families spend significantly more time in front of a screen than middle-class families.
2) Is "learning" the sole issue you're concerned about? There are studies that show cell phone bans are harmful in other ways: reducing social interaction, student happiness, and feelings of safety.
If you look at the above two points together I think you can draw a conclusion that smartphones, like most other things, are fine in moderation and potentially problematic at the extremes.
Here are the AAP recommendations about screen time: https://www.aap.org/en/patient-care/media-and-children/cente... AAP has a reputation for being conservative and evidence-based in what they recommend.
EDIT: I found a high-quality study from just last year that should no association between the age a child acquires a phone and depression, grades, or sleep quality. https://srcd.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/cdev.13851
* Commenters here are a highly selected sample. Many people are saying "I got lots of screen time as a kid, and all I did was learn computer programming." Well, sure, they're on HN! But your kid may not be like that.
* This is equally true for any parenting strategy. "My parents did X and I turned out great" is not necessarily informative because most people who are reading HN probably turned out OK.
* People's own parenting strategies are also non-typical ("I set up squid and created a whitelist..." is beyond most people). But maybe that's ok because you the reader are from the same atypical sample.
I didn’t get my first smartphone until I got a job, but I really wish that my parents had never let me have a personal computer, in hindsight. It caused significantly more harm than it did good.
I also use Wireguard to route my own mobile phone traffic through my home network. When the time comes to give the kids smartphones (which I'm in no hurry to do) I will initially give them managed devices with always-on wireguard to the home network, so traffic goes through the same proxy. The set of available apps will also be restricted.
We talk a lot about the complexities, opportunities and dangers of the internet and the kids are accepting of the restrictions.
The technology exists to manage this. It's the same stuff companies use for byod. It's just that nobody makes it easy for parents to do it.
Thanks for sharing.
My two sons were born in the early 2000's. When they were in elementary school, they had access to a desktop computer in our living room (running Gentoo Linux). In early elementary school, they had whitelist of web sites they could access, with Wikipedia as the home page. They each had about an hour a day, under parental supervision.
In middle school, they had tablets, which we made them turn in before bed time. I installed Minecraft on the desktop. Battle For Wesnoth is pretty good too.
In high school, we got them cell phones, and the school handed them laptops. We made them turn electronics in before bedtime, but we relaxed this as they got older.
I absolutely recommend setting boundaries. Properly instilling discipline in children takes a lot of self-discipline as a parent, and maintaining these boundaries can be a lot harder than it sounds. Be prepared for arguments. For better and worse, their cell phones are their connection to their peers, much of it mediated by Instagram and Snapchat.
It depends a lot on the kid too. Turning in the cell phone before bedtime became a major point of contention with my older son. We never had those problems with the younger one. I don't think we treated them that that differently, it's just how their personalities are. I think the kids turned out okay in the end. The older one is now serving in the US Marine Corps and the younger one just left for college a few weeks ago.
Love your kids, and stay involved with them. Then slowly let go.
If you set restrictions, your kids will almost certainly find ways around them. Maybe they figure out how to do it on their own device, but they almost certainly have a friend with unrestricted internet access anyways.
If you reason with your kids and set boundaries (at an appropriate age), they learn _why_ restrictions might be set. This means that after you would have stopped directly applying restrictions, they use self control to moderate themselves.
Obviously it depends on the kid. My parents went both routes and _every single time_ they set a hard restriction I found a way around it. When they blocked websites with online games, I learned how to set up a proxy to a computer on the network without restrictions. When they added parental controls on an iOS device, I found out that factory resetting from Find My wipes the restrictions (factory reset on the device is blocked when parental controls are enabled). When a more stringent network block was applied, I learned about DNS and how to bypass DNS-based internet restrictions.
But they reasoned with my about social media and generally nurtured my curiosity, so I just don’t find myself interested in any traditional social apps. I’m definitely not immune to digital addiction, but I’d rather be addicted to interesting link aggregators than Instagram.
Also- consider setting different limits for different kinds of content. I think video games are probably a better use of time than TV since they’re engaging and typically require thought, but a good documentary is educational and should be considered as such (a strict passive-consumption limit may encourage a kid to watch more “junk food” content while eschewing content that’s actually educational). Maybe defined limits aren’t the way to go, or maybe exceptions should just be the norm.
One thing I’d add is that you should apply similar standards to yourself when setting boundaries. Even if I wasn’t feeling obstinate about a particular restriction, seeing my parents flagrantly violate that themselves just made me want to bypass it—and I did!
tl;dr at a certain point kids are people and can reason for themselves—to a degree; consider this when setting limits, restrictions, or boundaries.
I had unlimited access to a PC since I was about 10 (no Internet until I was 16). 3 years later I knew the operating system inside out because of course back in the day of DOS and Windows 95 stuff broke easily and I'd try to fix it. I'd just tinker with it endlessly, started to read books about computers and tried to find out how it all worked. I started coding when I was 14, just learned it on my own by having a book and with curiosity.
I never would have made it in this industry if it wasn't for spending endless hours with my computer for years before I had less and less time when I got older.
A few years ago my parents told me that the best thing they ever did for me is to buy me a computer. I agree.
I'm no genius by any means but every once in a while young hackers with incredible skills appear out of nowhere. I'm sure that all of them have a similar story to tell you.
I can get behind the idea of limiting social media and video time. But screen time in general - not so much.
The amount of people that had the same upbringing but just became addicted to the internet/gaming instead of becoming a programmer is staggering though.
edit I'll add, I don't think blanket rules do much good either. The amount of "I won't let my kid do ____", where ____ is a pretty normal and mostly harmless thing, in this thread, is pretty wild. You have to teach kids to be reflective and thoughtful people, not just afraid of everything and/or unable to assess when something's good and when it's bad.
I’d rather have him do something that stimulates his mind. But I’d still not want it to be all day long. There’s slso the fact he gets incredibly cranky when playing them because he feels like he should always win.
Start with the docs "The Corporation", and "The Social Dilemma". If you are interested in some more of the history from the government surveillance side, "The United States of Secrets."
Now I have my own kid and I'm finding it hard to put limits on phone usage as her peers are on tiktok etc. all the time. But the most important thing I'm trying to do is have these discussions and then that's it, try to act on what we've agreed, but not arbitrarily whine about too much usage or anything else that would make her constantly stress about it. And try to guide her to spend the screen time in better ways, like spending time playing Factorio / Minecraft multiplayer with her so we get creative time together instead of her looking short videos.
But consider: we had no idea what YouTube or Facebook were, there was no Twitter, no TikTok, no Instagram, no Discord, no Reddit, there were no phones with internet in schools.
Times really have changed since then, and I feel like our experience is not that useful to compare with anymore. Every second activity you can do on the phone now is some kind of infinite algorithmic doom scrolling funnel optimized to make it as addictive as possible, to make you view as many stupid ads as possible while learning absolutely nothing.
Worse, social media makes you always available to all your peers so if there is any kind of drama or bullying going on you have no escape anymore, not even at home. I don't have personal experience with it, but I've heard Instagram is particularly terrible at this for teenage girls - due to it showing everyone who interacted with any post, it generates an insane amount of pointless drama and group pressure along the lines of "you didn't like my post in 30 minutes wtf", "you liked that person's post wtf", almost like some cult.
I imagine most people don't want to limit the kids access to technology and learning, but are trying (and likely failing) to protect them from the latter. Even as an adult I sometimes fall for it and chain watch pointless videos or scroll Twitter for hours on end... if that had been available back then, oof.
If you limit your kid's screen time to some arbitrary amount that you yourself cannot even achieve, you're transparently sending the message that you're full of shit and kids know when you're full of shit.
I'm an uncle to a 5 and 7 year old. They call you on your bullshit all the time! And even as a non-parent I get that it's hard to always have to debate a 5 year old, but they DO recognize and intake consistency, even if they don't have the capacity to understand logic and rationality. yet.
You gotta set a consistent and reputable example. Or else you're just making a human that understands power.
My daughter loves grabbing our phones and watching whatever she can pull up on them, dialing people. If you take it away she gets upset. At first I was thinking, wow phones are very addictive on a primal level, she's addicted to just the flashy screens.
I think the flashy screen being tempting might be a little true, but then I came to a different conclusion about why she was so fascinated with the phone.
I noticed she also "changes" her stuffed animals diaper including pretending to apply rash cream, pretends to read books laying around she's seen me read, fidgets with the same household items she's seen me fidget with. That's when I realized what may be obvious to people experienced with kids - they constantly imitate the adults in their lives.
So my daughter was probably obsessed with staring at a phone because she saw her parents obsessed with staring at their phones and wanted to imitate them.
Of course this may be more relevant for very young kids moreso than teenagers, where the smart phone addictions work at a higher more cognitive level. But it did drill home the message that our children can be a reflection of ourselves so if you want to improve their lives, improve your own.
Regardless, the moment he saw an iPad in the library, he wanted to stare at it and fiddle with it for an hour. Even to the point of completing ignoring the model train set which he loves.
Of course if anyone has never seen a screen like that, the second they see it they’re going to get fascinated by it.
Source: own experience and I bet most of the HN population's
The way the commodore 64 was so addictive even while not being designed to do so helps prove that point. Most of our parents thought we were wasting our time and should read a book or watch TV depending on the parent in question. Of course we didn't. In fact those other things were more time wasting IMO. We were learning to create.
That this obsession turned into great careers and changed the world (sadly not always for the better as you describe!) was overlooked back then.
But kids just love tech just like they love rockets and dinosaurs, they don't need their parents setting the example.
I pictured it in my mind like the 2001 monoliths -- these black rectangular things that hold all of the knowledge, and around which all sorts of social behaviour arise. Of course they're fascinating!
Also, talk to them. Tell them what the dangers are, tell them what they need to talk to you about.
I just had a conversation with my 15 year old about who she talks to online, how she decides what is trustworthy, the fact that conmen and paedos might play a long game etc.
I did this once in the 90s with my first kids. I'm currently raising my granddaughter and it's a much different scene. So far I'm still figuring it out but I have a couple of tips I could share.
One that seems to work the same is to make sure they've got options. Now what I mean by that is they need to be able to bring it to me rather than me find out about it or get it from them. So what i did, is make damn sure that when they bring something to me we talked through it work it out and it's going to be less painful, if it has to be painful at all, then it would be otherwise. So the incentive is clear take that shit to Papa let's find out what we have to do.
Another one, that appears to be a little bit harder today is to give them safe computing options. One really easy example is typing a URL into a browser, rather than the address bar. There are many others, you get the idea.
Local devices seem to complicate this, but in the 90s I made sure the internet facing computer gear wasn in common rooms. That way it was a family activity, and that was really good for building trust sharing experiences and all the other good things that need to happen to have a healthy dialogue between parents and child.
I may have more to say on this later, but I'm off to read all the other great comments.
Some good steps are zero phones at family eating times, kid book time, and kid bed time. I personally also think it’s important you are visibly alone when you are on a screen, in other words don't let your kids see you ignoring another adult for the screen. Like a modern smoke break.
Or when playing outside or going for a walk. No phone in pocket means it is harder to get distracted.
It’s much less usable and I hate constant notifications on my wrist, so I’ll usually have it on mute and do a quick check at my notifications occasionally to see if there’s anything urgent (usually work or a message from my wife).
I’ll mostly ignore my group chats on WhatsApp and emails, and there’s no risk of me getting sucked into group coversations with friends, YouTube or the Internet (I don’t have social media apps on my phone so that’s not too much of an issue), which is where the real time sink is for me.
Same thing when going to sleep, I don’t take phone near the bed, just have the watch on which has my alarms to wake me up with vibrate function.
especially when these influences absolutely don't have equal weight.
Big point of fights between me and my wife: me using my phone. Alternative in my view is being bored, providing the opportunity to talk to her.
I don't use it when we are at dinner or doing an activity. When she is doing something (more constructive eg dealing with our Airbnb) I'm tempted to use my phone. What do I do? Well this. Read HN, twitter (follow fantasy football, economics, politics).
It's come to me even just wanting a bath each night after work because it is a guilt free 30-60 mins doing what I want on my phone.
Kids policy: 2 aged 7 and 10 (I trying to see again via lawyers, another story). Policy for them was 1hr day on weekdays after homework, 2-4 hours on weekends. Usually they play Minecraft on their tablet.
I think this is reasonable. What the hell do I know...
Seriously, adults have a hard time resisting, kids have zero chances.
While we had the chance of growing up without this, they don’t. Our entire social fabric and kids developpement is gone.
This summer there was very very few kids playing outside, even if my kids were out, there no one out there. It took us two years to realize that our front neighbor had two kids!
You can’t tell people “don’t get addicted to X” (I mean, you can tell them anything, but telling people not to get addicted isn’t an effective measure to prevent addiction, generally, and hypocrisy isn’t the main reason.)
He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone.
The ability for young children to recognize hypocrisy is incredible, and the aptitude among teenagers to leverage hypocrisy to enable their own bad behaviour and use yours against you isn’t something worth contending with. You can only win by force, and your kids will resent the hell out of you for it. And for what? To look at your phone more?
Do any of us find ways to use our phones in worthwhile ways more than 15m in a day, truthfully? I sure as hell don’t. But I can sink a lot more time than that if I don’t think about what I’m doing.
Having a designated place for your phone helps. Another thing I found to make phone use at home less appealing when I first wanted to get away from it was to have a personal rule that I always had to be stabding up in the corner. I don't allow myself to sit down with it, which actuality helps a lot.
I speak with my friends on my phone. Sometimes I may speak and laugh for two hours with an old friend I, for family/life reasons, haven't seen for years but with whom I have this ability to instantly resume our customary banter.
I read books on my phone. I do prefer a physical book but after I started a job where I travelled a lot I actually started buying the electronic versions, and once I got a phone with an OLED display it is quite okay to read on it in the dark. I read at least an hour a day.
I think the "problem" is that any phone usage looks the same. If you are sitting with your calculus book you look "usefully busy", but not if you're studying on your phone. If I read a thick novel I look serious and smart, but with the book on the phone I look like I'm scrolling on Facebook or whatever people use nowadays. If I watch a lecture on computer science I appear the same as if watching anything else. Is "phone" itself bad, or is it just that it looks the same as if one is being "lazy"?
I think the issue is that a lot of us don’t use them to stay connected in a healthy manner, but I shouldn’t assume that includes everyone.
And why is this antagonizing "full of shit" comment at the top of an important post?
Clearly.
My wife and I have a policy that when we're eating no screens are allowed unless it's an emergency. I think this probably has the biggest effect of all. Also we have zero social networks (except professional ones).
I'm so tired of going to restaurants and seeing the entire family looking at their screens. The bigger the kid the bigger the screen. Technology really has killed social interaction and I try my best to raise my kids out of this mass hypnosis everybody seems to be in.
When we go out to eat my table is always kind of a mess because my two year old is all over the place. And that's fine. We can deal with it and we have some fun. I really don't buy he argument to giving kids a screen during meals so the adults can talk. Kids must engage in any conversation they want or simply sit and listen to adults talking. That's how they learn. If they're constantly zooming out then they won't learn how to behave properly.
I find it too convenient that adults who never had problems with this kind of addiction (because those devices did not exist) continue to feed their kids with algorithms.
Once my kids get to an age that they are more responsible I'll handle them a device and set boundaries. Since we (the adults) have been showing boundaries since the beginning I think it will work just fine.
So yeah, lead by example!
(Some children walk, some cycle, and others take the regular busses and trams, depending on the distance involved. In our case the child has to walk a few hundred meters, and not cross any roads at all, so it's an easy walk for him.)
Because school finishes around 2pm we've just recently given him a phone so he can say "I'm going to play outside", "I'm coming [to the empty] home", or "I'm going to friend XXX for a couple of hours". It isn't a proper smartphone, but it does allow more than an old-school Nokia.
We've generally allowed 30 minutes of "screen time" a day, sometimes that has been watching selected youtube videos, sometimes playing Super Mario Bros on the nintendo, and sometimes it has been watching TV. I expect the dynamic will change a little more now, but not hugely.
Parental controls will be setup to allow more access between 1pm and 6pm, but I expect that we'll not allow access in the mornings or "late" at night, just to ensure there's not too much obsessive use.
When/If the child can route around the parental controls I think we'll "reward" that creativity with more access. Need to encourage the hacker-mindset :)
When he's left to his own devices he reads a lot of Aku Ankka, plays with lego, pokemon cards, and toy cars.
He's quite interested in designing simple board-games, and role-playing character sheets. I think he gets that from his mother, and also from Minecraft. He'll show me a sheet of paper with a bunch of weapons (bows, swords, guns, etc) with "points" associated with them, and then tell me stories.
He goes to play with kids in the garden, the park, or at their houses often, and every weekend I take him swimming, then to sauna. Or sometimes just sauna.
We're doing a bit more "adult" stuff these days, now he's a bit older and has an attention span. For example in the past few months I've taken him to a 90 minute-long circus show, Linanmäki, his first metal gig (hevisaurus), and to the cinema to watch the Mario film. I expect it is only a matter of time until I take him to watch a hockey match, but I don't think he'll be so interested so I've held off for the moment.
I guess other recurring things include going to the allotment (palsta) to weed, harvest berries, and random walks in the forest. He's been really interested in that this year, especially.
My parents did this when I was growing up but it only handicapped me because I was interested in coding and didn’t have enough time to learn to go to the competitions I wanted. And I learned that coding was bad because my parents kept a strict time limit on it while other things were encouraged.
Maybe it’s difficult for me to see the benefits of a time limit when I think it has done more harm for me than good. It would make more sense to limit harmful apps and websites but not time from my perspective. But everyone is taking about time-restricting.
I can tell you if my kids were coding, making music, reading, or otherwise engaged in something more productive with their screens, I'd absolutely whitelist those apps for much more time. But it is, sadly, more YT Kids shit, Roblox nonsense, etc.
I think this is a much better approach than blanket screen time restrictions.
By the way, I got into programming when I was about 10 because an informatics teacher at school showed me how to do it and encouraged her students to compete in school programming competitions. I think it's very difficult for kids to engage with learning-centric stuff on their own, so an incentive (even a very basic one) helps a lot.
Later if he has interest I'm sure I could talk to him about coding, but I know he's seen me do enough that he'll not consider it bad..
(It has to be said that a lot of people who talk about bad content are also saying they don't trust that youtube, and apps, will have appropriate content. And a lot of the time kids want to play with phones and the internet they want to do it alone..)
What about getting them involved in a physical hobby like a sport, and not restricting screen time? Would that be more beneficial for the kid?
They did find the games menu, which is full of OSS educational stuff.
2) Dosbox: The 1990’s were the golden age of educational software. Abandonware sites are your friends.
3) The parents at school recently held a bit of an intervention for the parents of the 2nd grade kid with a tablet, cell plan and youtube.
4) The switch is a surprisingly good product. Game builder garage is well done.
5) iPad’s guided access mode lets you lock it into a single app (eg; Kahn Academy Kids, PBS kids, etc). If that’s too spendy, Alcatel (of all companies!) makes landfill-grade android tablets with extremely good parental controls. (Google’s built in parental controls include mandatory account sign in and tracking, so screw that). This model is good enough (It’s $100 for a renewed one on Amazon). https://us.alcatelmobile.com/alcatel-joy-tab-2/
As for computer access, I gave my kids access to my old PC running arch linux with some open source games, like minetest or supertuxkart. There are complaints that games are not as slick as they have seen when visiting other kids, but similarly to smartphones- they tend to accept my reasoning.
I don't let my kids to watch youtube unattended, I'm not happy with youtube recommendation system and more importantly with ads they serve. Luckily I got to the point where each time my kids see something weird on the internet they are either turning off or switching with some funny comment about the content.
As for youtube ads I think many are inappriopriate for kids, when I see them I chat with my kids about things that should not be shown to them and why.
I sometimes relate to my experiences, as I was heavily addicted to games, social media and to tech in general (in unproductive way), I see how this addiction changed my personality and I don't want my kids to go and make same mistakes. But even when they do at least they will be aware..
I do wonder why you aren’t okay with mainstream games like Minecraft.
We're right on the cusp of giving her a laptop w/ some flavor of desktop Linux and LibreOffice. She has expressed interest in typing versus hand-writing schoolwork. I'm also considering giving her an offline copy of Wikipedia, and perhaps a typing drill app. Edit: No network access, though. Strictly an offline machine.
She has sent text messages to me with her mother's phone a few times and had a lot of fun. I wish she had a phone for emergency calls and perhaps text messages only with specified contacts. (There are times I find myself wishing I could email or text her... >smile<) Her mother and I are Apple phone users, albeit w/o iCloud accounts and minimal interaction w/ the Apple "mothership". I wish their parental controls didn't require using iCloud.
Edit: Her mother and I already had a "no phones in restaurants" policy before we had the child. Having her around has helped reinforce that since we didn't want to be rude and effectively ignore her at restaurants. (Although once she learned to read she'd just read her book and ignore us. >smile<)
I don’t believe they do unless you want to be able to configure them from your own phone. It actually seems to be more reliable[0] if you do an entirely offline screen time setup. You can also use Apple Configurator to create configuration profiles that definitely do not require Apple IDs to use (though installing Configurator on your laptop does require an Apple ID since it’s distributed though the App Store).
[0]: https://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2023/08/05/apple-io...
I am 100% against completely banning them from using it as it excludes them from important social situations and an anti-technology policy hurts them in the long run.
They're here to stay: be a responsible parent and help them use them safely. Reward what they do well, don't punish them up front.
Edit: my eldest is 2nd year at university now. Without the technology focused upbringing she would have the burden of learning that on top of the education. Now she zooms around on her iPad Pro / Apple Pencil as an extension of herself. No technology is a barrier to her.
I don’t see it as a big burden. Do you think it took 18 year olds in 2010 who got an iPad when they first came out a long time to learn how to use them?
Kinda silly that it takes a long time learn how to use one.
I raised my kids on a sailboat. Literal death was just a matter of standing in the wrong place at the wrong time, or falling off when no one would notice for 5 minutes.
They all survived.
They survived because they had a deep understanding of the dangers involved and how to avoid them, not because raising 6 towards old children on a sailboat is perfectly safe.
Was it worth it? Sure. They are all amazing people with a global culture, strong risk taking and management skills, and a broad range of skills.
If one of them had died, my answer would probably be no, not worth it.
With screens at a young age, There is a risk of dopamine-short loops and damage to attention mechanisms in brain development. If they don’t do the thing’s that are damaging, they won’t be damaged.
To be perfectly clear, I am not criticizing your choice. Sounds to me like it was the right one. But it’s definitely a YMMV situation, like sailing the ocean with young children.
Danger can be a good thing if it's visible and apprehensible https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/24/why-germany-is...
But at high school, there's a good chance your kid will be hearing the n word on a weekly basis, at least, and the f bomb multiple times per day. And if not, it'll just be variations to avoid punishment at school. They know plenty of swears by that point, there's no point trying to censor it. And if you block tons of stuff, they can and WILL find a way around it. For example, a neighboring school district blocks very little, besides what is specifically intended for circumventing blocks, while my school blocks quite a bit (thanks, in part, to me using dozens of GBs in a day, and other adventures) and I'd bet $100 that they have way less students trying to circumvent their blocks. People will accept some restrictions, up until a certain point, and after that, there's no censorship, no blocks, and no control. There's tons of proxies, and they likely have access to much less limited computers at school. So at most, I'd recommend limiting social media to, say, an hour a day, and leave everything else unblocked. *They know plenty, and can circumvent, whatever you put in place, so just make your terms acceptable.*
And as for games, I don't really have a problem with vetting your kid's games, just don't pay attention to the ESRB ratings, look stuff up yourself. And don't let be a cheapskate and let your kid get sucked into addictive f2p games designed to exploit them, get them some decent games that'll last them a while.
Sorry for this being so long, I'll take another look at it in the morning and try to shorten it down a bit. But for now, good night HN.
We started loosening it for the 10 year old, but within 6 months of that we had a few incidences of early online bullying so we are pushing back again.
I personally hate to see kids and young people zombified looking at phones and want to delay, delay, delay.
There are, in fact, studies showing that smart phone usage isn't bad:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/17/technology/kids-smartphon...
Here is what I would want.
- Access to my child's browsing history
- Access to my child's YouTube watch history
- Require my (remote approval) before a child wants to install an application
- Give me the remote ability to turn off acess to certain applicationsy child use for a certain period
- The ability for me to block certain sites from my child browser like shock sites
Is this a logical conclusion/hunch/feeling, or is this documented somewhere?
I want these features to come with Firefox, Chrome, MacOS, Windows & Linux
Google offers you the ability to set up children's accounts with parental controls. I believe it offers some or all of this functionality. It appears that you actually need to access the child's account to view their history (doesn't seem different than an adult's in that respect) but you can definitely enact parental controls and whatnot. You can block or whitelist websites and apps for sure.
Windows has it built in but I’ve found it pretty non-functional.
- block YouTube. Mirror content you approve of locally. Yt-dlp + Jellyfin
- iOS has these last three built in to screen time. DNS can help with the last one too.
I’d urge you to resist attempting total control. Trust and verify can go a long way.
- What am I going to do with my child's browsing history except snoop? Are we still worried about porn in 2023?
- What applications are they going to install that I'd want to override that couldn't be solved by not giving them a credit card number?
- What are they going to watch on Youtube that can't be solved by simply limiting device time?
- Shock sites? Surely every one of us experienced that at some point in our childhood, and I haven't thought about them in years. And are they even in vogue these days?
- Stories like strangers trying to meet up with children seem on par with poisoned halloween candy. It happens incredibly infrequently, often ends up being a known family member anyway, and people forever fear it as if it's actually something to fear in their daily lives.
I think communication, education, and limiting screen time at certain ages is the only healthy thing to do. Giving children (yes, even young children) some privacy is important. Your suggestions I believe fall into the "helicopter parent" territory.
Also until extremely recently, almost no one saw adult material unless they found a magazine of utterly tame (by today's standards) printed nudity.
So porn is part of the issue? Really?
> So porn is part of the issue? Really?
Isn't that your claim? You needed access to sites your parents wouldn't have allowed to become the engineer you are today?
Social media addiction, etc. can be helped by restricting time without restricting access.
I guess that the percentage of people who approve of their preteen children watching porn is still a rather small minority. In fact globally I'd bet the majority of adults don't even approve of themselves watching porn.
More broadly speaking, assuming we're roughly of the same generation, I'm not sure our parents' borderline neglectful approach to children (latchkey, ads at 10 PM to remind them we exist, not being let in the house during the day) is one that's worthy of emulation.
So much to unpack here.
These restrictions just don't make sense to me. I was a pretty reserved child, so I can't imagine getting over all the hurdles needed to grow as a person and foster my love for programming/tech:
- Asking for permission to read all the random Perl forums or IRC chats I stumbled upon just wouldn't be a thing I would have done.
- My parents probably wouldn't have understood what it all was and denied my request. Early on I probably wouldn't have even been able to explain why I needed that access.
- Remember installing linux for the first time? Sorry, not going to happen because the stalkerware doesn't work on linux.
- You want access to a website called "hacker news"?? No way! (HN wasn't really a thing I think back in my childhood but you get the idea).
-----
Second, I was a latchkey kid. Having two working parents is neglectful? What would have been the alternative?
And my point with the porn is that it's not worth locking everything down for fear that your child is going to see some boobs. It's not worth it, and it seems that it's the driving force or a lot of these restrictions.
That's either a stupid or a dishonest description of the Internet pornography we're talking about here.
If you're so concerned with Internet pornography that you want to lock down your child's digital life and know every single thing they say and do, then so be it. We probably won't change each other's minds.
For what it’s worth my personal philosophy would be trust, but verify. That necessarily entails some way to verify.
Furthermore, in many jurisdictions parents are civilly or even potentially criminally liable for their childrens’ activities. If you’re in one of those jurisdictions you have a duty to prevent your child from breaking the relevant laws or other rules.
They shouldn't. Fight the ISPs.
> For what it’s worth my personal philosophy would be trust, but verify. That necessarily entails some way to verify.
Again, trust what? Do all roads lead to porn?
> Furthermore, in many jurisdictions parents are civilly or even potentially criminally liable for their childrens’ activities. If you’re in one of those jurisdictions you have a duty to prevent your child from breaking the relevant laws or other rules.
Really grasping at straws here. What laws are you worried your child will break that would reasonably reach the level you're worried about?
Trust that they aren’t harming themselves or others. The Internet is an extremely powerful tool and all powerful tools are potentially dangerous.
The pen is mightier than the sword and the Internet is to the pen as the sword is to the thermonuclear bomb.
Latchkey is a little after I grew up, mid Gen X, I think the premise is that these kids with working parents would run home alone and lock themselves inside in terror because some kid somewhere got abducted and it made the news. I don't know what statistics there are around it, but that's my memory of the phrase latchkey. I don't remember locking the door when I was a kid, we didn't live in a great neighborhood.
But I was a beneficiary of the borderline neglectful approach to children, and I'm certainly glad I grew up that way. I got kicked out of a bar for the first time when I was 10 or 11, and when I was 14, I would go to hardcore punk shows a hundred miles from home and my mom had no idea where I was. "I'm sleeping over at Joe's house tonight". Maybe "Joe" existed, maybe he didn't, but either way, I am at a show learning how to stage dive.
So it's weird reading how closely people watch their kids these days, and I'm not criticizing, people raise their kids how they raise their kids, none of my business. But I am reminded of one friend whose house I stayed at a couple times, he actually had two parents, if you can believe that, and they monitored everything he did, asked him questions about everything, listened to his answers, and he had to ask for permission for everything. On one hand I could tell he was lucky he had parents who cared about him and wanted the best for him, but I also remember feeling so, so sorry for him.
That being said, here are some of the things I worry about:
- The internet is no longer a niche playground for nerds, and much of it has become a mainstream entertainment megahub, very highly cultivated for your bland engagement. When I was growing up, I had to constantly fiddle with and troubleshot several layers of software in order to explore, interact with friends online, and play games. It was almost like a barrier to entry. These days, I'm not entirely sure I would have fiddled with anything and might have just skipped to the gaming & media consumption part. After all, it just works now, and the media is more engaging than ever. There seem to be fewer incentives for learning and creativity.
- I'm more concerned about bad behavior modeling than I am about the moral panic nonsense. I want to make sure that whatever personalities my kids are having a social/parasocial relationship with aren't encouraging trollish and abusive behavior.
- I'm also concerned about misinformation. Most people generally are very bad at gauging the trustworthiness of information online. Ironically even the people who cry the most about how media distorts your worldview tend to have that exact problem. I want to teach my kids critical thinking and how to evaluate information based on several important criteria. This will have to be an involved process, and I want to be able to contextualize heavy sources of misinformation while they're being exposed to it.
None of these problems are well addressed with a luddite approach, but they do need careful attention.
Every, and I mean every one of my male peers uses porn more often than he'd like...and at least a third of the women.
"Not worrying about it" in that context sounds like "conceding defeat," not like having overcome a problem such that it's no longer worth concern.
When I was 15, YouTube was music videos, shitty flash animations, and people doing bargain basement myth busters. Now it's content farms, conspiracy theories, cleverly crafted dopamine hits.
Similarly, online multiplayer games when I was 10-15 were warcraft 3, neverwinter nights and diablo 2. Compare those games to Roblox, Fortnite and co - it's just not the same (and I say this as someone who now works in this space).
I don't have a good answer, but the landscape has changed so wildly in the last decade that I thin it's incredibly naive to think that it's safe to allow unrestricted unmonitored access to devices.
You've commented plenty throughout your replies. But this bit uses very concrete, casual language. I'm not sure how you could possibly know such a thing and therefore write the statement you wrote. So much of your success as a hundreds-of-thousands-of-dollars engineer is luck, timing, and other things that are not so clear in nature.
I otherwise agree with most of what you wrote.
They won't have smartphones or tablets of their own until high school. And even then it will be for creative things, comms with friends. No social media.
I will allow them to play some online games, like Fortnite and Rocket League, with the chat/mic turned off. My daughter loves Astro's Playroom (great game BTW) so she's gonna be a gamer. Game consoles aren't the problem. The always on pocket screen that's constantly beeping with promises of a dopamine hit is a HUGE problem. It may seem like a fine distinction, but it's crystal clear to me (and to them). I make a point to show them what screens have done to groups in the world, when you see people all looking at their phones instead of each other at dinner. We laugh at them and pity them, and this is correct.
I think the important part is to never, ever let this be a substitute for parental attention.
My plan for the future is to:
-Start with a quiz on online safety/dark patterns and grant privileges based on the knowledge she acquires and internalizes.
-Give data allowance. It so happens that the most addictive online behaviours are the most data-hungry. You can browse Wikipedia or even text with your friends on 32kbps. On the flipside, you can blow through gigabytes in one evening with TikTok.
[0] Regarding that I found that it's difficult for me to figure out where to put boundaries because I wasn't given any, since both of my parents were addicted to screens - just their 90s equivalent - television. My dad would get home from work, turn on the thing and watch it until past my bedtime.
I settled for boundaries that I'm familiar with, so timeboxing, allowance and competence tests similar to e.g. a driving license.
This article dives deep into screen time, citing research that indicates that there is no causal proof between the quantity of time children spend online/on social media and any specific outcome.
https://www.lucieslist.com/guides/screen-time-kids-research/
To me, it seems we might be echoing the technology panic cycle that has existed with penny novels, the cinema, the radio, comic books, role-play games like DnD, the internet, video games, and now smartphones and social media.
They carry dumb phones for calls only (we gave them one when they started going on multi day trips from school or outside of it at age like 6/7).
They both have laptops and can game on and communicate with friends and classmates.
They have old iPhones they sometimes use at home (with no sim cards). Those don't leave the house and are very rarely used (mostly to chat in friends groups).
They don't watch youtube (except for music sometimes). They know what TikTok is (because all their friends watch it), but they don't (currently) have interest in it (mainly because we've had long talks about how terrible doom scrolling social sites and short videos is).
If at some point we give them smart phones with sim cards, we'll heavily restrict social media sites and apps, but I plan on keeping the dumb phones in use for as long as possible (hopefully until 15-16).
I don't think children care too much about any of those problems, though. I used to listen to music on a cheap radio player with an usb stick and I thought it was the greatest thing ever.
My kids are 9 and 6 and the older is impulsive/adhd, so I am very careful with her. She used to want to watch kids playing with toys / unboxing videos when they were in vogue years ago and I shut that down quickly. I want her to play with those things, not watch someone else.
We allow a <2hours of screentime a day; TV or Chromebook. But it's mostly the former.
I have adguard at home where I sheepishly block things when they find sites I don't like and they use their schools Chromebooks at home which already is pretty restrictive. Only Roblox on the tablet.
Their friends have smart phones, which I find abhorrent. Although her friends are breaking them and parents are just not replacing them, so at this point it's moot. The unrestrictive iPad time I hear from her that other kids get is annoying and won't happen here.
The 11 year old is addicted to his phone/switch. But he constantly plays with friends so when we block it he ends up being somewhat isolated. Seems like a can’t win situation but he is also pretty active with sports and does great in school.
9 year old doesn’t have restrictions but seems to get sick of it after an hour most days (more on weekends). She only games with her brother usually watches YouTube.
5 year old gets 1-2 hours of tv time a day. Usually because she wakes up first and turns the tv on herself, and then right after daycare while one od us is preparing food.
It’s really challenging. The younger ones get jealous of the older one if he gets more screen time. The older one is very social and suffers when he’s isolated from his friends when we turn off his screens.
Just looking around the room I’m in, I see 3/5 of the people with laptops/iPads but also on their phones. I think phone addiction is common, but maybe addiction isn’t quite the right word if it’s not negatively impacting their life as you mention with school and sports.
Re. FOSS the problem isn't the software, it's what they can access through it. Instagram, tiktok etc are horrible for self esteem, education, emotional growth.
Even with something as simple as a Kindle (which we don't restrict as much) I've had to drop Kindle unlimited because my kid was reading age inappropriate material on it. Children have very very poor impulse control and all that the online stuff does is basically exploiting that.
We show example by putting cell phones away at 8pm when at home and not using phones while eating.
My mind turns to milestones. Maybe puberty is the key, when social groups get more complex. Maybe it’s when they get a driver's license, and can travel a city away at the drop of a hat. Maybe it’s when they start attending parties, and you want them to be able to get out or home the moment they feel unsafe. It probably depends on the kid and their peers, but all those are around 13-15.
Screens aren’t themselves bad; my kid has great fun playing crosswords and code deciphering games, and it’s practically no different from the paper versions.
The external pressures are nuts. It got to where she was just staring at the screens of her friends phones.
My next oldest starts middle school next year. She has a smartwatch set to “family mode” for when she wants to walk to her friends or the park without an adult. She has access to the internet on a home computer. I think that better because she just ends up researching her curiosities over “engaging” with some mobile app. I get a report of her search history to make sure there’s nothing that is a code red.
I didn't have a phone of any kind until I was 18, and I didn't have a smartphone until I was 23. I had restricted internet access up until I was 16.
Personally, I want to wait as long as possible before giving my kids smart devices. I see little kids with smart phones and it just rubs me the wrong way. But I'm totally willing to admit I might be in the one in the wrong here, and maybe I'm being too cautious. I don't know. The internet is a very different place than when I was a kid.
When people say things like "kids need it so they don't get left behind," I laugh inside. It's not hard to learn how to use the internet these days, in fact toddlers are being pacified on tablets at this very moment. The idea that you need ten years to learn it is silly. Sure, have kids take an online safety class, since they apparently cancelled drivers Ed.
I'm glad I got to face it when already mature, not sorry.
Play involves accessibility, low stakes (cost of fault is little), freedom and some sense of excitement and arousal. Maybe a sense of community should be added as well to this list.
Early video games from the SNES era, the early internet, Linux, programming etc. all have that.
Smartphones can have that as well, but they give access to all the things that don’t have that, and it is questionable whether parental limits are creating authentic spontaneity that is necessary to safety also necessary to be able to learn how to handle with these things.
I generally trust my kids and they're pretty responsible, but there's a lot of stuff out there they could inadvertently wander into, and while they probably aren't at elevated risk, I don't want it to happen sooner than necessary.
They have Android phones, btw, and are practically the only ones in the school who do. The result has been that they use Messages + Telegram for chat. They barely acknowledge the fact that their Google accounts mean they have email accounts, and even if anyone sends them anything they don't read it. App-based push notifications are a requirement if you want tweens'/teens' attention.
We bought them phones as a safety precaution because they 1) ride their bikes to school, and 2) we're all over the place in the evenings with sports practices, some of which don't end until 9:15pm. We appreciate them being accessible -- by us -- and giving them the ability to communicate with us and their friends, too.
Phones are not allowed in bedrooms or bathrooms in our house, either, for adults or kids. :)
More recently when much of the inner city was in lockdown, those tools proved invaluable. Even if it were just for kids communicating to other kids in lockdown in the room next door.
We are very anti screens. And we try to set the example. My wife and I never check our phones in front of them.
I dont know how long we'll wait until getting them a phone. They go to a private school that tries to push the "wait until the 8th (grade)" rule and we're OK with that.
I will also start with harsh restrictions and parental controls first and then allow more and more. It is easier to limit access right away than applying restrictions afterwards.
My daughter is only 4, but she's had access to a tablet since 1. She's far less addicted than any of her cousins. She will give it up in a heartbeat to do anything else. Sometimes just cartwheels down the hallway. Her tablet is wall garden locked to amazon, so no access to youtube which was honestly a good move looking at some of her classmates. I've some apps outside of Amazon's garden like Disney Plus. All her stuff has parental controls and her tablet operates at my pleasure and before bedtime.
I think that some this is just parenting. I saw a study that stated that screen time only correlated with bad outcomes if your kid would have been doing something else. So if your kid could have been interacting with you, but instead was play games or watching streaming then that's where it's bad. If they would have just been home doing nothing, then the tablet doesn't hurt and can sometimes help.
I've taken this to heart and from a young age I've tried to just do stuff with my kid and have her so stuff and make sure she understood that while riding in the car with her tablet was okay, using it at the park was not okay. Replace park with literally anything. I think this is why now, her tablet is more of a boredom thing for her and she's doesn't need it every moment of every day. She'd rather run outside.
I'm just a sample of one and I know I'm more strict the more addicted the child seems to be (I have many niblings). I do think that screens are dangerous, but so is sugar and I think like sugar you a balance is best. You don't want a kid sneaking sodas because you never let them have one, but allowing soda every day is probably bad idea. That's my stance about screens. If you feel more attached to your phone, etc beyond it being a tool, you probably need a longer break from one is my thinking.
and probably predisposition which is being selected against in real time
as in, yes, its an additional distraction that undermines a group of human’s productivity for the next few generations, but not all
To the OP: people typically have a herd mentality. HN is no different in that way. All you can do is try to instill trust between you and your kids and hope they will listen to you. You should also be super transparent with them about why you take the position you take. Give examples of people’s addiction to their screen/social media and how it’s distorts their view of reality to only make them feel bad about their existence. I am sure you can find a few in your own extended family or surroundings. Generally speaking , going against the grain takes a high degree of belief in something. Overcoming one’s minds transient desires requires strong intellect. That can be developed but it’s not an overnight thing and it’s certainly extremely hard when most People barely have any time to themselves or their kids - at least in USA (where real wages have been stagnant for 30+ years but cost of living has not[1]. The US deserves the birth rate decline it’s facing. It’s going to be a while before free markets and capitalism can evolve to solve this one)
[1] https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2018/08/07/for-most-...
The only thing I require is that device usage has a purpose (ie write what you are going to do down) and is not just a distraction.
I don't have a policy for a personal device, but if most of time spent is with parents or or at school, they don't need one. I'm probably thinking middle or high school at least.
At home we use Circle. If they want their phone to be on our wifi, it has to have the circle vpn installed. I assumed they would just want to use their own data, but so far all of them have voluntarily chosen to have the circle vpn installed.
But in those similar posts and this one, the OPs never mention how they were raised.
I think it’d be interesting to know.
Even if it’s not a smartphone. It could be a Nokia trac phone or whatever. It could be video games. It could be their own personal laptop or pc or their own AOL kids or teen account.
It’s hard to provide advice when we don’t know the baseline.
We have a family flip phone that I can give out as needed when a child is going somewhere and we want to be able to contact them and vice versa.
Gabb wireless is also a good option.
We had conversations and whatnot and there were times when they were giving the phones to us so that they are not distracted when working.
These times are long gone and their phones grew into their palms it seems.
The older one is 19 and when he has lots of work he manages to disconnect.
I think that between 15 and 19 yo the battle is lost and I gave up. I preferred to keep a close link and contact with them rather than fight all the time.
There are probably better parents though, more strict and systematic. I am not without fault as I use my phone all the time as well.
YouTube = 30 min a day Roblox = 30 min on weekends General browsing = Enforced by Kaspersky Safe Kids with all adult content blocked
Total device time = 1.5 hour per day
Anything that takes more time, like scratch programming, school projects, research on topics, etc. is done on my laptop under my casual supervision (I reading a book and he using my laptop and filling his word doc with what he wants to write or doing Scratch programming for example).
Family link for Android works great. Kaspersky Safe Kids works great for Windows Laptop.
I can enforce device use time, content, app time limits, etc. Has been working like a charm since Covid days.
Yet, I don't have the courage to make a peep when I see friends handing their phones to their kids so they'll let us talk at the restaurant.
In my day (back then) they'll send me to buy cigarettes or some other errand.
There's some kind of content filter on it to help keep him from the worst of the internet.
You can set very granular things, like which apps they can open, for how long, and what permissions are allowed. For app installs, the parents can remote-approve it, or allow kids to download only free apps (not good idea).
You can see adjust the restrictions on the fly, like oh you've done your homework, I'll give you extra hour. You can see usage report.
My kids are still using it to watch youtube. So I'm not successful yet.
My son is about 18 months younger and I did the same for an iPad Mini when he saved up for it.
They've been very responsible with their devices and we have talked about the potential dangers. Still, if I were to do it all over again, they wouldn't have touched those devices until they were 14. To this day I question how badly even I need one.
We're happy with the results so far since she's turned out to be a very patient, intelligent, and attentive child. She finds enjoyment in books, puzzles, drawing, cooking, gardening, cleaning, unloading/loading the dishwasher, laundry, and all sorts of activities her overstimulated peers would find boring nowadays.
I’ve 4 kids, so you can imagine that once it’s on the house, it’s in the house and anyone can access the device.
Phone with a SIM card in 8th grade.
If they create a social media account (including chess.com and TikTok) they have to “friend” us - their parents.
This is working well for us, especially on the family logistics side: shared calendaring, family iMessage thread, shared shopping lists.
I’ve also enjoyed seeing how each kid uses the device differently.
as long as you dont really expect to have any control, lower your expectations and act surprised
Oldest daughter received a phone for her birthday shortly before starting 8th grade. We have Android locked down with Family Link so it only does voice, text, Spotify and email. It's working pretty well but there are still battles over excessive screen time.
This is also going to make it tricky having any rule for our younger daughter.
Like, 99% of the porn out there is boring mainstream hardcore stuff which was readily available as soon as internet video became a thing. The only important thing to instill in your kids here is that porn is not normal sex, which is something I figured out pretty quickly.
Of course, you can’t just throw everything at a kid and expect them to figure it out. But kids are smarter than most people on this thread seem to think. With a little guidance, they can develop a sense of what’s what in technology and use it well.
When I was 13-14, I signed a "contract" with my dad that I would write a song for him if he bought me the guitar I wanted. I'm in my 30s and it still haunts me that I never came through on my half of the deal, but playing the guitar is a huge part of my life, probably because of that arrangement.
Whitelist all the things.
Many peers have a locked down apple watch.
I wish I could find the clever comment from the parent who talked about "playing defence" with smart phones, which this thread is about, vs "playing offence", finding competing interests and distractions! I try to "play offence" and do trips and social things. But our capitalist hellscape makes it hard for other parents to get that time. So we look for total control or total abstinence, right? I am just optimistic about technology and want my kids to be masters of it.
So my 10yo has had mostly free rein of a laptop & phone since he was about 5, maybe a bit of TV and kids Youtube channels before then. He was reading before 24 months and is a bit of a sponge (& parrot) for whatever he finds interesting. We have lots of weird and interesting conversations about internet culture. I wish he was more interested in long-form things, but he gets great reports from school, so I have no concerns about his ability to learn.
I see his various internet histories, and I've quietly poked on some parental controls: YouTube time limits on long days, or blocking obnoxious bro channels. He likes to draw, spend time with his family, organise play with his friends, but he's published Roblox games too. I spent a lot of time helping him understand addiction, loot crates, pay-to-win and algorithmic horrors (particularly during the pandemic). It took a few months but he's worked out how to deal with all of that - I guess that's a "better under my roof" policy.
My 4yo has a tablet, no particular restrictions but she can kindof forget about it for days in a way that my 10yo wouldn't. She's learning about boring games that suck until you pay for a subscription, and has learned why flicking between new games every single day isn't actually fun. She is just as capable of changing content on YT Kids but sticks with videos. Unlike the 10yo she likes watching long movies, particularly musicals where she will rewind and learn songs. Again I block the odd obnoxious channels: product placement, gender stereotypes, whiny voices or just general artistic bankruptcy.
So (on this thread anyway) it looks like I'm in a minority in being laissez-faire, a little reactive maybe. There are potential harms but I think I'm active and knowledgeable enough to keep them at bay.
The first thing we laid down was the various possibilities :
- no phone yet - a very basic phone (no smartphone) - a smartphone, but with no internet (except Wifi) - smartphone with internet (4G/5G/etc)
We quickly decided that a smartphone with internet was out of the picture, but we also decided it was time to have a phone.
The main reason for that was regarding the organization. Last year, she had to use her friend's phone to ask us what she could do based on calendar changes, like a sick teacher. When I was her age, I used a phone booth to do the same, but they all have been removed today. That mean she needed to rely upon others to contact us (or ask the school). This gave an argument to have a phone.
The second reason was that she had a great year last year ("6ieme", in France), great results and she is serious, honest and reliable. We can trust her with a phone.
So we had to choose between a basic phone and a smartphone with only wifi. We had an old smartphone that was still working fine, and she likes to do video montages with our tablet, so we thought going the smartphone road was a good option. Plus, I gotta admit, if I'm being honest, a bit of peer pressure. (Many people we discussed it with told us it was a low blow to give her a basic phone where all her friends would have a smartphone. It's not about the material for me, but mostly about not being on specific apps (Telegram/Signal, etc.)).
But having a phone is just the beginning. There will be rules that come along, and a lot of them.
First, we have a rule at the house for all our kids; they can not watch "screen" anytime they want. We are broad with the term screen as it means what it means : any screen: TV, Computer, Tablet, and now phone. They can only have screen time at 11:30 and 18:30. The idea is to have around 2 hours per screen - at most - per day. Of course, this varies based on when we eat (we tend to eat later on Saturday evening, for instance), and we allow for more screen time on Sunday and the occasional Movie night.
So it will be the same for her phone.
But also, phones will be absolutely prohibited when at the table and in her bedroom. That was the second argument for the Wi-Fi; she will have to use it in the common space, where we can see a bit over the shoulder.
Installing apps will be reviewed by us; some are already on the no-list, like Snapchat.
She could definitely install apps without asking us, or waking up at 3 a.m. to search her phone downstair. But as I've said, she is honest, and I'm confident that's not something she will do.
Finally, and this might be the most important part. While handling the phone to her, there will be a talk. A long talk. We'll explain to her the risk, the pressure, the temptations, and all we can think of to help her understand this is not something to be taken lightly, but we will also insist a lot on the fact that we are always here if she has any problem (this applies more broadly of course).
So here's our approach: Clear rules, a well-defined environment that doesn't restrict her much, but with the knowledge that she can always rely on us if anything happens. Bonus tip I learned via a friend this weekend: We'll tell her that if something difficult she can't share with us, there is always her godmother she can talk to, who will take the appropriate action. We are her parent, not her prison guard.
Now, we'll see how this evolves in a few months/years...
I also would advise that what I see here are a lot of straw man arguments - "discovered porn online? we had magazines and we turned out fine thus porn is fine". This is also a great example of where the two meet and create a very dangerous and incorrect (in my opinion) argument. The porn someone used to watch in a magazine would be limited to just that - a magazine. Static content that wouldn't change, that wouldn't gather information about you and at the end, you would be stuck with it for the foreseeable future until you would get your hands on another magazine. Online porn on the other hand watches what you watch, it creates recommendations and reinforces whatever behaviours you show to it in order to keep you engaged. It also has the nasty superpower of being there all the time, at any hour in any day and creating a self reinforcing cesspool that cannot and is not good for your development [1].
We're very quick to brush off that children just watch a few videos online and that those videos seem to only yield positive things, but the simple act of being always connected has negative downsides that have been studied. I feel like we're dealing with climate change discussions where we're still doing studies to figure out if it's really there. It is. It's really there. And so is the damage this always online society is doing to children, from their sleep [2], to their learning abilities and retention [3] as well as damage to self and body image [4].
These were all found in a quick search but the literature on this discussion in particular, the effects of technology and screens on younger people speaks for itself. It is damaging and just because we have 50-100 people who were fine, doesn't mean that the rest will be. They might be! Nothing might happen but that does not mean that the result is guaranteed and we should be so cavalier about dismissing any possible negative discussion around the topic.
It's also crucial to remember that in the end you cannot control what kids do. You can't. Just think of all the things you hid from your parents successfully. Now imagine that the thing they need to hide is just a browser tab.
[1] - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/dec/08/sexual... [2] - https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s... (there are other studies on this, this is just a review of existing studies) [3] - https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/pen-and-paper-beat... [4] - https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2023/02/social-media...
Then they started changing the wireless network password. That's how I learned to set a wireless card into monitor mode, capture a bunch of packets, and crack WEP keys.
Then they started locking the router in a closet, and plugging it into a "timer" outlet (that itself plugged into a regular outlet) and just stopped letting electricity pass through at certain times. That's how I learned to pick locks.
Now I work on a red team. Thanks for the free training, mom and dad!
I've gotten in big arguments about a similar idea with my brother. I've told him I intend to monitor all internet traffic and phone activity in my house because I want my kids to grow up understanding that anything they aren't extremely careful to encrypt and protect can and will be read by the people they least want to see it.
He thinks I'm evil and children deserve privacy. I think he's neglecting a duty to teach his the hard truth that you are responsible for your own privacy.
I don't remember the specific product he used, but it was something very similar to this: https://www.amazon.com/Techbee-Countdown-Programmalbe-Electr...
The lockpicking was addressed with a more sophisticated lock, which was in turn met with a crowbar, which was in turn met with an increasing number of locks on the closet door, which was in turn met with me noticing the hinges were on the outside of this door and simply taking the door off the hinges without ever touching the locks.
I'm sure whoever buys my parents' house when they sell it in a few years will be a little curious about the one reinforced basement closet door with three pick-resistant 7-pin deadbolt locks, upgraded strike plates, and which is also the only closet door in the house with hinges on the inside, lol.
At least the hinges should make it clear they were trying to keep someone out, not keep someone in...
Not my proudest moment but I used to do anything to get extra time on the computer, I work full time as a security engineer now.
I wouldn't mind a little more humor here, but it's hard to moderate something subjective like that.