1: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2015/11/20/40-of-mil...
2: http://campaignforfreespeech.org/new-poll-free-speech-under-...
1: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2015/11/20/40-of-mil...
2: http://campaignforfreespeech.org/new-poll-free-speech-under-...
I do not have a better response than this. Some people never learn anything from history...
Burning the Koran is offensive, should it be restricted? No! Freedom! Next they'll stop us watching old westerns and doing fancy dress etc! We have to be able to prevent this being extended to things which affect me.
Burning the Koran is offensive, should it be restricted? Yes! If we allow it then they can burn the flag/constitution/bible/effigies of the president/??? we have to be able to prevent this being extended to things which affect me.
"First they did x" construction works in both cases non?
This is the status quo and it's accepted by nearly everyone on the free speech side. There is no sequence of future reductions in human rights to prevent.
I'd love to hear an argument about how Switzerland is heterogeneous, but here's what I found:
Switzerland is a country of ~8.5M, or the same population as New York City, or 2/3 the population of the rest of New York State, or less than the population of Virginia and 11 other states.
And Switzerland is ~40k km², a bit less than New York State.
What I'm saying is it's very small compared to the US, with 330M people across 9M km² of land.
As for homogeneity, Switzerland doesn't have birthright citizenship (where the US does), so foreign nationals may remain foreign for multiple generations; it's also part of the Schengen, permitting EU members to travel and reside without a visa or other permission. All of this makes an apples to apples comparison with the US much harder.
Switzerland is ~75% Swiss nationals, with ~25% foreign nationals, but ~85% of those are from the Schengen area.
About 15% of the US population is foreign born, but almost half of those are naturalized citizens -- there's also 10M+ foreign nationals in the US illegally (more than the pop of Switzerland), though any children they have in the US will be natural-born citizens (unlike in Switzerland). If we include the first US-born generation, it jumps to 28% of the US population. And when we look at where those immigrants come from, two of the top three origins are in Asia (India and China).
Again, I don't know how to make an apples to apples comparison. It's likely that Switzerland is more heterogeneous than some places in the US, while less so than others. But if I had to make a broad statement, yeah, Switzerland is much more homogeneous than the US, and I'd love to hear an argument against it.
You are indeed making the “things that work in other places won’t work in America because of differences in race and ethnicity” argument.
This is a fairly lazy analysis that plays on America’s often unspoken cultural beliefs around race. While it is true that race is a major cultural marker in America, this fact is not innate and the oft repeated argument that “homogenous” societies can do things that we can’t amounts to little more than “we can’t do it because we are different”.
The determinants of diversity in the sense that it might be relevant to a discussion on free speech depend on a multitude of cultural factors. You can’t just say “well they aren’t diverse because they don’t match the criteria set out and defined by _America_”.
95% of Americans speak English. If half the country didn’t speak English well that would make for a very different society and culture than the one we have now.
White western Europeans have very similar cultures and societal norms due to their shared history. A Frenchman, Swiss and German are likely to have generally similar views on what would be acceptable speech for example.
But not all Americans have a shared culture and history that would influence their ideas. That's because, from even the very beginning, we have had a very civic minded form of nationality that 300 years ago was unheard of. And today is still fairly unique. But if I am a Presbyterian New Englander my cultural norms and what would be considered socially acceptable behavior will differ than a Baptist Southerner, A Catholic West coaster or an Atheist Midwesterner. There different regional cultures, religions, and cultural influences from our immigrant ancestors are going to shape things quite a lot. When I was growing up we called this the American melting pot. I don't know if that terminology is still used.
When you have a nation of immigrants they are going to have different ideas they want to express. Usually you will have one majority but many majorities. Traditionally that majority was rooted in the descendants of early English colonists. Sometimes derisively called WASPs. America has had a lot of strife between different groups interacting such as the large Irish influx during the potato famine. German and Italians during periods of upheaval in the late 19th century. Chinese immigrants on the west coast around the same time. Interactions and immigration both ways with our northern and southern neighbors. The consequences of the African slave trade. It goes on and on.
Whether or not such changes lasts through several dozen generations is still undecided though.
You italicized innate so I assumed you meant to put special emphasis on that part?
For example, it's at least theoretically possible for someone who had ancestors a few generations ago that were enslaved to suffer some bonafide inherited and disadvantageous epigenetic mutations.
Or for those who has ancestors who got shell-shocked in past wars, got involved in serious car crashes, etc...
I'm not sure if such factors should be considered legally, lest competition turn it into some kind of pity olympics, but there's a non-zero chance large segments of the population came out of the womb genuinely, innately, disadvantaged slightly.
Emphasis on theoretically.
> there's a non-zero chance large segments of the population came out of the womb genuinely, innately, disadvantaged slightly.
may be slightly affected. Again, how is this relevant to a discussion on free speech?
My point was that there is no innate reason why race would lead to politically divergent opinions, at least not to the degree that it would lead to such major discord that it would require a fundamentally different model of free speech in society.
It's somewhat relevant since these epigenetic mutations can increase the probability of someone being a misanthrope, for example, that just hates other people and who doesn't care about their lack of free speech.
Or vice versa, someone with increased anxiety/nervousness/etc., and would be exceedingly disturbed by even small regressions in free speech rights.
Already the direct-democracy bills of county elections destroy me. The _majority_ has voted to steal from me to pay for their daycare, housing, and other non public good subsidies every single voting cycle.
A direct democracy allows majority theft with no recourse or limit. It's proposterous!
There was a reason for voting qualifiers at the founding of the country. I say we bring them back if we want to switch to direct democracy so that only those with skin in the game get to vote: restrict voting to only those persons that pay income taxes on agi.
I think Peter Thiel made some remark (maybe in his poorly moderated student youth period) along the lines of "Freedom is incompatible with democracy" which has an uncomfortable amount of truth to it assuming the state you are in remains actually committed to protecting those freedoms.
It is very similar to the rhetoric I hear when the left talks about attacks on democracy. They don't seem to actually mean democracy. They seem to mean their version of it, as in those voters that are aligned with them.
Also, how is a minoritarian rule of the rich (plutocracy) a more just system than democracy? Yeah, they have skin in the game, and the game is protecting their wealth instead of contributing to the commonwealth. There's a happy balance to be found in there, of course, but you don't want to arrive at it via pitchfork.
Certainly, but if the government doesn't have regular election cycles it's an all-or-nothing approach.
Consider MBS. If he doesn't want to play ball with the cia, he won't, and there isn't much the cia can do about it. He's not going anywhere anytime soon, or potentially ever during his lifetime. Contrast that against a gov that holds regular elections. The cia gets the opportunity to influence the election outcome (chance 1) and then gets a chance to influence the winner if they're not already captured (chance 2), all the while knowing if they fail chances 1 and 2 they will get to try again in a handful of years.
> Also, how is a minoritarian rule of the rich (plutocracy) a more just system than democracy?
I don't consider it minoritarian rule. The minority can only say no change. They can't craft change of their own. This helps prevent the tyranny of the majority problem. However, the majority is what is needed to actually make changes, or more aptly a super majority. This helps to make change slow and harder, which is not a bad thing in my opinion, especially considering how the ruling parties tend to oscillate every decade or so. The change that happens trends to be good for both parties, not just one.*
*Obviously a lot of things pass that are terrible (e.g, inflation protection act), but at least it required more than just 51% agreement.
Absolutely. The big questions are if the transition to this state is inevitable, and once the transition has occurred are you better or worse off than under the Swiss system.
Going by the state of both societies the Swiss one seems to have a lot going for it.
I can say with certainty that I would be in jail for speech related offenses in any other country than the US.
The phrase “tyranny of the majority” was rarely used by writers and thinkers in the founding period. It was alluded to in one of the 85 essays that made up the federalist papers and the coining of the phrase is generally attributed to a French writer several decades later.
Your characterization is largely historical revisionism.
That poll is from 2015 (and the other from 2019), not necessarily representative of current views. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/01/upshot/millennials-pollin... millennials are becoming more conservative as they age (and many were radicalised by the covid response).
1: https://www.ft.com/content/c361e372-769e-45cd-a063-f5c0a7767...
Also: even if Millenials were becoming more conservative (which would be very strange for a lot of economic reasons alone), the definition of “minority” held by the media may not really apply if nearly half of the generation identifies as non-white. (https://www.census.gov/newsroom/archives/2015-pr/cb15-113.ht...)
No surprise that this carries over into broader public policy as those students become adult voters and officials.
I fear for the near future.
For example very noticeably: the most powerfully tyrannical developments in the modern US are the retributive legal system, state violence against poor and minorities, crackdowns on sexual and reproductive healthcare, oppression of sexual minorities. And these policies are overwhelmingly supported by the same people who purport to value so highly their ability to fight tyranny with guns.
And at the same time we're seeing a growing grass-roots racial terrorism campaign, again enabled by the same people & policies. Lotta "lone wolves" out there who independently decide they need to shoot up a bunch of black or asian or jewish people.
So again it's not that we're fucking stupid. We just see that you're not willing to use that power for us, and we want your friends to stop using it to kill our folk instead.
Even then, it's not a very strong right, since for the past 30 years at least, the common reason for cops to shoot people is "I thought he had a gun" with suggestions that people carry bright orange wallets to avoid being mistaken for having a gun
But I think this overlooks how we've won our freedoms over the last century. Suffragettes didn't take mayors ransom. Labor unions didn't march on DC with firearms. Civil rights activists didn't surround police departments with shotguns. Protests against the draft were literally flower power.
The idea that rights flow from violence in today's world just doesn't track. It's way more likely you secure your rights with strikes, marches, and protests than with armed resistance. The truth is the idea of a noble rebellion violently struggling for freedom is a Confederate fantasy, which is the aesthetic preference of a certain demographic. It's maybe less romantic to them to run boycotts and strikes (and actually win the popular vote), but that's how things work these days.
You're right, marching with guns doesn't resolve civil issues most of the time. That's not the point. It's for when all other options are exhausted. And we won't truly appreciate it for what it is, until that time comes, by which point I hope we haven't complacently thrown it away because we couldn't learn from history (again).
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable." ~ JFK
It's really based on "hasn't happened to me, so it probably won't happen to me" logic. Which is stupid when you're setting rules for generations to come. All good things come to an end, and the US will too. It will be a slow boil until we realize we're in a seriously corrupt and unrepresentative state that can only be fixed through force. It has happened time and time again, and to think we won't meet the same fate is incredibly naive. At least we have an enshrined fighting chance to reset the way we want.
> It will be a slow boil until we realize we're in a seriously corrupt and unrepresentative state that can only be fixed through force.
There's no evidence this is happening, certainly not to the degree we should suffer the current level of gun violence to combat.
Metal detectors in school can still come in handy for things like knives, unless you intend to ban those too. Way more people die from car accidents and drug overdoses, and those numbers don't have millions of legal self defense encounters to balance them out. Cops will always be concerned about their safety. You can kill someone if you simply gain physical control over them. An unarmed person charging you is just as dangerous as an armed one, in terms of use-of-force continuum.
Perhaps the greatest example is the race riots, specifically LA where the police completely abandoned areas and local shop keepers used their own weapons to protect their livelihood.
Furthermore, the right to bear arms is heavily limited, automatic weapons have been banned for around 50 years at this point, getting any gun is subject to background checks in basically every case, age limits are also in place, "dangerous" things like suppressors require additional fees and paperwork in order to own.
We depend on us to protect us from bigots. And it's more effective and less morally compromising to do this when the bigots don't have guns. As it is an honest self defense class for my people starts with "have someone who knows how prison commissary works" and ends with "get right with the lord" because that covers the full spectrum of likely outcomes when a nonwhite person defends themselves with a weapon in the US.
As the saying goes, better to be judged by 12 than burried by 6.
2. You assume the whole military would be unified in drone striking their fellow countrymen. I wager a large chunk, likely more than half, would splinter.
3. There's not much point in nuking the place you wish to rule. There won't be much left to rule.
It's such a pitched question it's ridiculous. It's even worse that you're pretending it says anything about attitudes towards freedom of speech.
These same people are taught that speech and violent action are the same, and that words are harmful, rather than actions. Worse, they're taught an equivalence that not saying the "correct" things is also violence.
Free speech is table stakes for a free people.
The problem is that it's impossible to prove a negative of this nature because you are always met with no-true-scottsman responses.
Reality is, if you press any human hard enough, you will find something, that's just how things are.
You are just projecting your inability to use data on everyone. Some people don't think like you.
What was the wording of the questions?
It aligns with the relatively widespread notion that equality and equity are not the same thing.
Simply put, a blanket freedom of speech for everyone can and will stifle the speech of some who do not feel safe speaking out, and/or who do not feel safe as a consequence of what others say.
That means there is no such thing as a complete and total freedom of speech. So the question becomes not if speech should be restricted, but how.
Within this conceptual framework, "free speech absolutists" are not only arguing for something that cannot exist, but they're arguing for something that harms others. So the solution that would lead to greater freedom of expression among the largest portion of the population is to paradoxically restrict speech that discriminates based on innate attributes.
I'm sure many here will disagree. I'm not writing this to get into an argument, but to explain a possible reason for the millennial polling. In the conversations since BLM, I do think this type of thinking is reasonably widespread.
I happen to agree with that viewpoint while also being quite concerned about any attempt of the government to stifle dissent, which I view as being antithetical to democracy. I do not see that as oxymoronic. Democracy is not easy or simple.
Weird comment considering I'm explaining a point of view that many people on several social networks have. There are plenty of thoughtless knee-jerk comments in this thread in support of several different positions. Mine is not one of them.
It's also weird you're framing me as endorsing authoritarianism when I explicitly said how and why the position I outlined doesn't do that. There is nuance here that you're missing.
So we're not really arguing about whether speech should be restricted, but where that line should be drawn.
I would agree that Millennials support drawing that line a little more broadly, but there is also a difference about which speech should be more restricted. The pew research piece you linked was specifically about offensive statements about minority groups, but what if you asked about whether trans educational material should be banned or whether the word "cis" should be considered a slur? I suspect that the demographics would be flipped.
In meatspace, these concepts are distinct: You can speak all sorts of horrible stuff while being peaceful and conducting yourself well. You can also say nice things while being violent and belligerent. Government surely has the right to stop you from being violent and belligerent. On the Internet, there is no difference between speech and conduct. You conduct yourself by speaking/writing. So how can we enforce good conduct without regulating speech? The states are trying to draw the line between speech and conduct, and that's not easy (maybe impossible) online.
:)
These types of comments make me smile. The government is an idea is the minds of people. It doesn't/can't have rights. It's a non-existent entity.
And yet. People believe that it has the ability to create 'rights', and people will be somehow beholden to its pronouncements. Is government 'God'? I think to most people the answer is yes. It is their authority; such individuals are not an authority of themselves.
The proper answer, imo, is that nothing except for my own heart and reason can guide me as to what is morally right or wrong. No work of man (law, religion, government) can say anything to me. All these works (law, government) are badly bent towards a self-serving elite, for the extraction of wealth from those that believe in these phantasms.
We laugh at those in history who we are told tithed 10% of their work to their local lord in the feudal system, and 10% towards the church, but don't blink at paying 40% to the government.
There are really only individuals, but the mind control in most is very effective.
I think if we had the ability to trace the origin of each belief about what is right and wrong you would be surprised by how greatly law, government, and religion have influenced you.
Edit:
> There are really only individuals
This must be why solitary confinement is considered such a great privilege when incarcerated.
Ha! Nice line.
But, in all honesty, totally controlling another person, confining them, is only an example of control.
But, if not in the individual, where do you think meaning or anything of value, occurs? The feeling/meaning/thought, is only within oneself, surely?
The newer generation seems to be okay with moving from a blacklist -> whitelist approach where the range of acceptable opinions and topics are set by the group and things outside of that range are labeled offensive, bigoted, racist, something-phobic, or harmful in some other way and banned.
Responding specifically to your point about trans educational material, free speech absolutists are 100% okay with allowing trans educational material that says anything at all. I'm not kidding, think of whatever offensive thing you want to say about cis people, free speech absolutists are okay with you saying it.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" is something I, and other free speech absolutists, truly believe.
You'll have to specify when this golden age existed. I suspect that if you name any specific date, we could find all sorts of respects in which freedom of speech was much more restricted in the US at that time than it is now.
I know this to be true because my parents and grandparents told me that that is what their generation valued, and what they thought the definition of free speech should be.
If the majority of the people in a culture decide that they care about free speech then the minority of censorious bad people in power can be overcome.
How do you think the left got the power they have today? By being allowed to write whatever they want in opinion columns, make movies that insult corrupt politicians, write plays about evil industrial fat cats poisoning the water supply, marching through the streets with megaphones dissenting to war mongers.
Now we are saying it's okay to silence these people as long as we label them as "harmful" or "bigots" in some way. Even being anti-war is now somehow becoming associated with the alt-right taboo people that must not be talked about.
What we are seeing now is a generation of people who do not share the ideal of free speech, and are okay with censorship and an ingroup/outgroup by default.
Can you imagine a situation now where CUNY was unable to appoint someone to an academic position because the Catholic church canceled them?
As another example one might mention the vast reduction of censorship in movies. Movies can be shown now that would have been unthinkable in at least the first half of the 20th century.
Granted, there may also be instances of present day censorship that wouldn't have happened historically. But it's naive and completely ahistorical to see any past period as some kind of bastion of free speech absolutism. Believe me, lots of people in your grandparents' generation also wanted to restrict free speech (particularly with regard to e.g. sexually explicit content, or anything that might be vaguely connected with Communism).
Conditional upon that, why wouldn't we strive to correct the implementation? The opposite seems to be happening.
The OP was discussing the ideology of free speech, not the implementation. My response was an attempt to bring the topic back to the ideology of whether free speech should be allowed in absoluteness, in contrast to your deviation towards implementation.
Today's conservatives in my mind just say it out loud, and the typical news media isn't squelching it, and social media is broadcasting it to get more interaction. Today that hate speech is widely disseminated. That's why today's youths are more open to blocking it - because it's much more ubiquitous.
I fear you might be viewing the past through rose tinted glasses.
Today it's repeated in social media incessantly, nazies saying things on twitter is another example.
Please link where racist hate speech is "widely disseminated" on reddit. (Reddit has been strictly controlled speech according to San Francisco values for a decade).
Or please show, anywhere in America, a "crowd saying things to say keep black kids out of their local school yelling".
I didn't mean to imply there wasn't racist public speech in say the '60s, of course there was, but it wasn't repeated on the news much. If you went out in a crowd you'd hear it, but the news paper usually gave some nicer repetition.
So - you have no links to all that racism you're describing on reddit?
And no evidence of crowds yelling to keep black kids out of their schools either?
Again - You're saying there's so much racism. Substantiate your claims. Please provide the links to show us that what you're describing actually exists.
(It doesn't exist, because all these social networks very strictly police speech to prevent racism, as does society at large.)
This is untrue in practice, often wrapped in dog whistles, or rephrased as "urban" or something else terrible. Reddit is still an extremely racist place and its basically a game to find new ways to be racist.
If racism is the natural condition of humanity, and you need ocean-boiling engines of censorship constantly watching and suppressing content to shape it into some bonsai fiction of humanity that pleases certain people, then we don't deserve otherwise.
I'd rather arrive at that pretty bonsai of humanity through education of society at a massive scale than censorship at a massive scale.