Hacker News Reader

Comment by Animats | Hacker News Reader

The US military builds dummy towns for training purposes. This is called "MOUT" training, for Military Operations in Urban Terrain. The current ones look like towns in Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, etc. The National Training Center at Fort Irwin, CA has the biggest one.[1]

(There's a very good reason for that sort of thing. Most infantry casualties are among soldiers new to combat. Very realistic training means that most noob mistakes happen at a training facility, not in combat. Armies that don't do this have huge casualty rates at first.)

[1] https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/05/its-a...

View on HN

This is not only good for reducing infantry casualties but also reducing civilian casualties.

Once the panic response sets in, it is likely that they will fire on anything without fully assessing.

Training in similar environments can help soldiers avoid a panicked response and more logically assess the situation.

I've done combat training in one (a 3-story aluminum sided building furnished like a large office) and they had rigged the whole building with an interactive surround sound system. Once the course started and we got up to the building, I thought I heard music coming from inside. We opened the door and Metallica was blasting at 120db and none of us could hear each other. We had to communicate using signals while navigating the course with fake hostages and combatants etc. all while Master of Puppets was assaulting my ears. You couldn't escape it either, we were being sound-gunned on every floor and every room.

Anyway, just thought I'd share since Sound is something people forget when imagining training in these buildings and the experience was invaluable.

Sounds like we were in the same era. Welcome to the jungle was a perennial favorite at the school house my days.

At one of the SERE courses I did they had a noise focused resistance training period so you lose all sense of time and space. Pretty trippy

This is extremely unsafe and seems like grounds for a lawsuit, if it were reasonably possible to do this. For reference only 7.5 minutes per day at 120db will cause permanent hearing loss. Disgusting that they made you do this.

https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/regulations/standardnumber/19...

I'll be honest, 120db was an exaggeration because it was VERY loud, I would not have had a way to measure it in combat gear. Additionally, earplugs are part of a military uniform at a lot of bases so you are required to carry them and the onus would be on you. At that point in time, I was not required to have hearing protection however.

You're not a civilian while enlisted, suing for any reason is not an option in most cases. It's more likely you would file to collect disability in the event of hearing damage after you get out.

Hearing damage should be on the easier to show side; I'm sure they screened your hearing during enlistment, so if your hearing tests as damaged when you're discharged, there you go. Confirming a connection to service if you don't test near discharge might be harder.

You might be surprised... a friend of mine spent 18 months in a tank with a cannon next to his head and has almost total loss in one ear and much lower function in the other... he's had trouble getting VA to pay for hearing aids.

I'm sorry to hear that; I would have expected it to be much easier than some of the stories I've heard about getting coverage for Agent Orange exposure from family and others.

Google "3M ear plug lawsuit".

I hear OSHA also frowns on being fired upon at work

Is it not typical for the military to have hearing protection? My highschool gun club had earmuffs with active noise suppression that would dampen sound above a certain DB level.

It is common and a part of your uniform on a lot of bases i.e. you will get in serious trouble without them.

Depends... apparently doesn't help much if you're in a tank with a cannon a few inches from your head for 18 months.

Or using pneumatic tools for 12+ hours daily for weeks, or spending time underwater with the worlds most powerful sonar

this is so grotesque to read. Imagine a fake all-American town constructed in China, and someone commenting "This is not only good for reducing infantry casualties but also reducing civilian casualties."

The PRC did exactly that to train troops for Taiwan. There's a replica town, a replica of the presidential building, replica airbases, and even a weird pseudo-Eiffel tower [0].

[0] https://thediplomat.com/2015/08/satellite-imagery-from-china...

I'm sure they do. To be clear, MOUT towns for infantry training existed before GWOT time. Shugart Gordon in LA is a good example of a more western looking town (link below). I spent a lot of time there back in my Infantry days.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/uD9NpAu7rAYBYLNx9

What's wrong with that? If America was for some reason invaded by Chinese infantry, I would certainly prefer that the soldiers were properly trained to avoid civilian casualties.

What's the alternative?

A recent study showed handing a Pepsi to the invading army would avert war

That study has not been replicated.

eg, staying out of other countries.

I would imagine those do exist in China

I'd imagine America would be the last place China would invade, so I would be surprised if they'd bother. The closest (western) scenario I could see them training for is Australia.

I thought Australia would surely be in NATO and that would deter China from doing that but after looking it up, it looks like NATO and Australia merely have "deepened relationships" (according to an article from last year), whatever that means. Today I learned!

Because Australia is not in the north Atlantic

Reason: even in 2023, the logistics of invading a very large country of 350ish million across the Pacific are daunting, to put it mildly. “Impossible” is barely an overstatement.

I would also be surprised if they bother to train for an invasion of North America.

Then there's Hogan's Alley, the FBI training facility that is, in the current era, an elaborate fake town populated by actors and used to simulate a wide variety of scenarios from terrorism or hostage situations to processing evidence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hogan%27s_Alley_%28FBI%29

Playas, NM is another one. It started as a real town, was abandoned when the mines played out, and now DHS uses it for training.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playas,_New_Mexico

Google Maps link, for those curious: https://goo.gl/maps/Pnyjs4RsQbdzrFbY9

Edit: N 35°20'58.0" W 116°35'39.1"

35°20'58.0"N 116°35'39.1"W

So this is where Tackleberry trains now, not that old strip with the fake houses…

You can sometimes see some of these on the 5 when passing through Camp Pendleton in north San Diego County

Getting Americas Army tingles reading about MOUNT training. Used to play it heavily back in the days

Reply on news.ycombinator.com