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Comment by changoplatanero | Hacker News Reader

I guess it's not possible to design a tea bag that's not made out of plastic but that can also survive the boiling hot temperatures?

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No, that's very possible. The problem is our obsession with making everything single-serve and disposable. I think this is what you are looking for:

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=stainless+steel+tea+infuser+ball

It's an obsession with convenience, which doesn't have to mean single-serve or disposable. Loose leaf tea is slightly less convenient. It's very hard to argue with people to give up convenience, but if you can figure out how to make loose-leaf tea easier than bags I think people will do it.

Also, there are some cost and shelf life concerns: https://spoonuniversity.com/lifestyle/a-steep-dilemma-tea-ba...

Also, apparently here's some stats about loose-leaf vs bagged tea: https://www.statista.com/forecasts/1093592/preference-for-te...

You can even get them built in to a nice little pot. I had this one for a while https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01LZSA84J

Tea bags used to be made of fabrics such as cotton, silk, etc, it's not like we don't know how to make them without plastic.

They're still frequently made out of paper.

In the UK it would be very unusual for it not to be made out of paper, I was shocked when I visited the US

On a related note, today’s paper straws are apparently covered in PFAS, even though paper straws existed way before plastic was commonly used.

I assume you could just coat the straw in food grade wax, but for some reason that’s not commonly done.

I can only imagine food grade wax being way more expensive than PFAS type chemicals. Probably easier to apply as well. Just thinking of all the "reasons" companies would state as to why they justify poisoning us all.

PFAS will potentially put 3M out of business just like talcum powder did to J&J.

J&J still exists and will continue to exist though? They settled for some 9 billion, which is a lot but not enough to sink a company with a ~400 billion market cap.

400 billion market cap companies do not usually have 400 billion in liquidity laying around. And after the first bankruptcy there may now well be a second:

https://www.reuters.com/legal/jj-effort-resolve-talc-lawsuit...

As I understand it that link describes a plan to use the bankruptcy of a subsidiary (NOT the main company) as a way to resolve the court cases in one go. The subsidiary is funded with enough money to pay the expected settlements (with the parent company guaranteeing any shortfalls) and bankruptcy is used here as a legal tool rather than a "we are out of money" point. Matt Levine had a great section about this in his newsletter but I cannot find an un-paywalled link to that atm. It's the one from Jan 31 if you are subscribed.

According to their latest annual report (https://www.investor.jnj.com/asm/2022-annual-report, page 45), they had some 14.4 billion in "cash and cash equivalents" at the start of this year. Their net debt position was 16.1 billion on Jan 1 2023 (page 46 of the same report), up from 2.1 billion the year before due to an acquisition so there is likely quite some room to take on additional debt. Total net earnings for 2022 were just below 18 billion. Paying a 9 billion USD settlement will be painful for sure, but even double that would be just a single years' worth of profit. J&J is extremely likely to survive this problem IMO.

That subsidiary is just a legal trick. And this is exactly what J&J want you to believe.

https://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2022/10/20/the-texas-two-step-a...

> And this is exactly what J&J want you to believe.

Do you mean that they lied in their annual report about their profits and/or their current cash on hand? Or that the total legal costs will be much higher than the 9 billion settlement agreement?

Because I still don't see how a 9 billion settlement would bankrupt J&J, even if the subsidiary were to be reabsorbed into J&J tomorrow. They already set aside ~7 billion in Q1 2023 for this and have way deeper reserves available.

The settlement is limited to those cases that have been brought and they're trying to plug that hole with legal tricks. But so far the judge isn't buying it which means the parent company will be liable and if it is found to be liable after all you can count on many thousands more lawsuits. It will also remove the cap on settlements. You can expect J&J to take a massive hit on account of that, possibly more than the market will bear. Keep in mind during all of this that in order to fail as a commercial entity all that needs to happen is that you are momentarily out of cash. The vultures will swoop in right away to dismember the corpse looking for bargains.

My understanding is that all the covers of fast food (fries holder, hamburger wrapper, inside of paper soda cup) are also covered in PFAS — so far disposable coffee cups. Anything “paper” that is in contact with food, really.

Except for the traditional British fish-and-chips newspaper, but that one should have traditional lead-based ink for flavour.

Plastic tea bags are rare in Germany, although they are getting more popular. Tea bags are usually paper, apparently made from this plant: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abac%C3%A1

Oh interesting, didn't know that! Interesting fiber. I always wondered why tee bags are so robust when wet. They feel so different too.

Also TIL: Manila hemp.. Manila envelope.. jupp, they were also made from that fiber up until some time ago.

I rarely see plastic tea bags here in the US (outside of Starbucks). Most use filter paper.

It's the same in the UK but those filter paper looking ones actually used to contain small amounts of plastic.

I believe most have transitioned away now... or, at least, the only brand that matters if you're British has transitioned[0]

[0] https://www.yorkshiretea.co.uk/brew-news/plastic-in-tea-bags...

What? Tea bags were made of cotton and paper decades before plastic came about. Plastic was likely introduced to lower costs and extend shelf life.

Cheaper tea bags are made out of paper and they work just fine. Tetley, for instance.

Sadly they still contain plastic to seal them:

"We’ve worked hard to ensure that our tea bags are 99% bio degradable. However, as a result of the manufacturing process, Tetley tea bags do contain a very small amount of plastic to ensure the bags remain closed for you to enjoy your cup of tea."

https://www.tetley.co.uk/frequently-asked-questions

I just had a look at two of my non-Tetley teabags. They appear to be stitched closed with the end of the string. Why does it need plastic?

Edit: The quote from the FAQ mentions the bags being biodegradable, and this page [1] about their "new biodegradable bags" shows a photo of bags without strings. So maybe it's just these stringless (and presumably cheaper to manufacture?) bags that contain plastic?

The Twinings FAQ [2] doesn't mention plastic: "Our teabags are biodegradable, plant-based teabags and will break down within 6 months if placed into a local authority compost caddy, though it may not compost as quickly if left in garden compost (as typically these are not sufficiently hot)."

[1] https://www.tetley.co.uk/sustainability/product-and-packagin...

[2] https://twinings.co.uk/pages/faqs

Some teabags used to use a tiny metal staple for that (it also held the string on). Definitely do not need glue.

are tea bags even necessary? people managed drinking tea before plastic was invented

Perhaps as a profit center to the tea industry. Most tea bags contain the grades of tea that can't be sold in the more expensive loose leaf form. Basically leaf fragments and dust. That material would otherwise be a waste product.

It's also a benefit to the consumer in the option of cheaper tea - you can still have choose to pay more for loose leaf.

Are cars even needed? people walked before. Is any modern convenience needed? We can probably live in tents and use a bow and arrow to get our meals.

Environmental cost of using and washing a teapot is likely higher than that of using a teabag and brewing directly in the cup.

If you're washing your teapot, you're doing it wrong. A light rinse is enough. Over time a patina will build up on the inner walls of the pot, some say this makes the tea better.

I haven't reached this level yet, but I know people that have yixing clay teapots that are dedicated exclusively to a certain type of tea. The brew they get from their aged pu'erh tea gets better over time in that teapot with use.

Metal tea balls are also available to brew tea.

that seems extremely unlikely

I just weighed an empty teabag: 0.19g. I think it's highly likely that less than a gram of mass-produced paper has lower environmental cost than is needed to clean a whole teapot. You need hot water, and detergent, and the teapots are cleaned individually, so you have the overhead of heating intermittently used pipes etc. Teabags are a mature technology where production efficiency is highly optimized.

you need hot water or detergent, not both, and as another commenter mentioned, you don't need to wash the pot anyway. you're sterilising the thing every time you use it

teabags may well be a mature optimised technology, but they're releasing microplastics and that's worse than using 0.000% more energy, if you even are, which I doubt, when you factor in the additional weight required for transporting the bags, the transport of the wood for the paper, etc etc etc.

also, highly optimised does not mean highly optimised for the environment. where in Europe and parts of the America your energy supply may well be up to 40 or 50% renewables these days, or higher, you can be sure it isn't in the developing country your teabag was manufactured in. plus fumes, plus whatever land they stripped to plant the trees for the paper, if they're not cutting down old growth in the first place

I think it's a rounding error either way, but our pot for black tea only gets rinsed (usually cold), and our pot for herbal teas occasionally gets put inside the dishwasher. Not sure why you think teapots need to be washed individually.

I assume the environmental cost is dominated by other factors that apply in both cases: growing the plant, transporting the product, heating water to boiling temperatures.

why do you need hot water?

Because it's far more effective at cleaning than cold water.

but tea doesn't really even need detergent? a scrub and rinse for the pot is fine.

A Gaiwan is one traditional Chinese way of making tea, but those words are literally “covered bowl”. If you don’t want to buy one, you could makeshift your own: brew loose leaf tea in a cup or bowl and pour it into your drinking cup using a small plate.

believe it or not but it's OK to consume the tea leaves and drink slightly bitter tea ;). if you accept this the solution is just not to have tea bags at all. brew with the leaves and drink immediately, and if you forget, enjoy your bitterer tea!

You can also get a re-usable metal mesh infuser.

I eat kiwi skins too. The amount of pesticides used to grow them though means it's probably not the best idea

I LOVE kiwi with the skin on. I rub the fruit against my jeans or a tea towel first, then just eat like a pear. Really adds to the whole flavour (like how eating a pealed apple is nice, but a whole apple can be better.

wow, my mouth just reacted in a not pleasant way just from reading that.

You can also use a stainless steel infuser.

It's definitely possible, many tea bags do not contain plastics, and are instead made of cotton, hemp, or other non-hazardous materials.

Most tea bags are made of Manila Hemp (a banana plant). Many have a heat-sealable thermoplastic such as PVC or polypropylene on the inner tea bag surface as well, that you never feel or hear about

There are some survey reports on this out there that I have seen. It is common for more expensive teas, and ones labeled "organic" to be plant fibers only, but there are exceptions. If you want to figure it out on your own, you can take an empty teabag, briefly set it on fire and blow it out, then smell the smoke. Personally, I usually pour the contents into my cup or tea pot and throw out the teabag.

https://www.google.com/search?q=which+tea+bags+contain+plast...

Just transfer your tea out of the plastic tea sachets into a cotton filter. Coffee filter or they make small ones for loose leaf tea.

I would choose a different brand if the tea bags came as plastic and send them a nasty letter. I've been lucky enough to never have encountered them I guess.

Honestly I find some of the "nicer/high end" or even organic brands of tea sometimes use the plastic sachet, this is because that allows you to see the product inside whereas the other ones hide the product. The only brands I run across with it lately are Harney and Sons, and a Russian tea brand Maiskiy, but most Maiskiy bags are paper. And Harney and Sons is a nice treat.

what you want here is loose leaf tea

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