Comment by christalwang | Hacker News Reader

Comment by christalwang | Hacker News Reader

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Appreciate this question, it's one we've gotten a lot and quite frankly I agree we haven't nailed the best way to articulate it. To answer a few of your questions... - We don't use psychologists or psychotherapists as the front-line helper because there is a severe shortage of them and our main goal is accessibility. There is a provider shortage (psychologists, psychiatrists, therapists, etc.) in the US and most places in the world - Depending on someone's severity, helpers can include parents/teachers, peer support specialists, mentors, coaches, therapists, psychiatrists, the list goes on (I tried to broadly categorize from least to most intensive); our service does not aim to support the most severe. Anyone who screens with high degree of Mh impairment is not suggested to use Shimmer (and we have screening in the onboarding process) - Frankly, depending who you ask, you'll get a different answer for "are coaches respectable". Coaching is a modality that is "up and coming" because of (1) the need for more providers and subclinical support services, and (2) the credentialing / reimbursement models are evolving... see next point: - We align our model most closely to Health & Wellness Coaching, which is estimated to be reimbursed by next year: https://www.wellcoachesschool.com/post/medicare-moves-advanc...

Overall though, we use PhDs/psychiatrists/master-level coaches to supervise, create protocols, trainings, etc. and use coaches to deliver. (Not AI). Our coaches are either credentialed by ICF (International Coaching Federation) like BetterUp or Ginger or Lyra's coaches, NB-HWC (National Board - Health & Wellness Coaching), or have masters-level psych degree and go through our training.

Happy to expand on any of the above!

You say you haven't found a way to articulate it. You should articulate it exactly the way you do in this comment.

You are not providing licensed medical services. Just come out and say it, since it's true. Yes, saying that will cause people to distrust you, and well it should. You are right about there being a shortage, but there is no substitute for a real doctor.

That said, being upfront about it instead of trying to beat around the bush or make excuses doesn't help you. It only serves to make you even more untrustworthy. Your attempts to obscure the fact that you aren't providing real medical service only suggests that you know in your heart that what you are providing is not the same. If you believed your "coaches" were good enough, you wouldn't have to do anything at all to hide the fact that they were not real doctors. You could just come out and say it.

Shimmer is NOT clinical and we do NOT provide licensed medical services. We are most definitely not trying to substitute a real doctor. Full stop. We hope that is clear in all of our communications and website, and do NOT try to obscure that.

However, we do a lot of work to work with the right experts (which include clinicians, psychiatrists, etc.) to ensure what we do it safe, follows best practice, is science-backed, and is effective. And we definitely want to highlight this work that has been done and the importance of it.

We will update the language to better reflect this immediately.

> Shimmer is NOT clinical and we do NOT provide licensed medical services

In which case I personally find the phrase "All of our Shimmer ADHD Coaches are licensed or certified mental health professionals" to be quite deceptive.

Thank you for pinpointing this. I re-read many times, and I agree with you. I've just re-written the whole section with our Lead Coaching Psychologist, Xenia.

Your website has photos of the doctors for the "care team" and coaches buried under a link. Come on, just be uprfront with people.

This was an excerpt of a longer message; we did not claim all our coaches are licensed or certified mental health professionals.

Original wording: All of our Shimmer ADHD Coaches are licensed or certified mental health professionals* or have extensive experience with ADHD & undergo our Shimmer Coach Training program

Even the full original wording doesn't align with what you later said:

> Overall though, we use PhDs/psychiatrists/master-level coaches to supervise, create protocols, trainings, etc. and use coaches to deliver. (Not AI). Our coaches are either credentialed by ICF (International Coaching Federation) like BetterUp or Ginger or Lyra's coaches, NB-HWC (National Board - Health & Wellness Coaching), or have masters-level psych degree and go through our training.

If the licensed or certified mental health professionals aren't actually hands-on with your clients, it's awfully misleading to say that all of your coaches are licensed or certified mental health professionals or blah blah blah. If you were being honest, you'd skip the nonsense about using mental health professionals as coaches and just say that your coaches go through your training program and are supported by mental health professionals--you know, the actual truth.

please elaborate on which licenses and certifications they have. Can I confirm those credentials, how will I know if they are industry recognized and respected instead of your own in-house certification.

None of them are our own in-house certifications. We haven't designed that yet, however we are considering it. Not meant to replace incoming certifications in the short- or medium-term, but to reward coaches for their learning and work and for common language. Example credentials of our coaches are: ICF, NB-HWC, MSW, PhD, EMCC, PsyD, LCSW, LMFT. Not all coaches have all of those credentials—it'll differ by coach.

> Not all coaches have all of those credentials—it'll differ by coach.

What decides who gets what coach? Is it a triage based on symptom severity or first-come-first-serve?

Or highest paid best coach..

Just updated the language in our FAQ for this!

> quite frankly I agree we haven't nailed the best way to articulate it.

You've certainly nailed the best way to articulate "we haven't worked out how to best phrase our bullshit to fly under the radar" though.

We've just changed our language with the support of our care team and the folks in this thread! Super open to more suggestions if it can better represent what we're doing (ADHD Coaching)

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