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Comment by dijit | Hacker News Reader

You need proof of address too, it's not enough to have just an ID.

A passport is good, but you should also be aware that not everyone has a passport or drivers license. (for example: I didn't when I got my first bank account).

My first bank account was a deal my mother made with the bank where she acted as guarantor.

having a right to a thing is not the same as actually getting it; there is a lot of anti-fraud legislation that exists and must be complied with. The bank isn't just going to fully open an account with nothing but an ID. I can say that with absolute confidence after working in financial services (albeit briefly).

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When I got a RealID-compliant driver's license a few years ago in my state in the US, an existing driver's license and passport were not sufficient. I needed some document to server as proof of my current address, such as a utility bill. I don't remember what all the options were but, yes, some people--including kids getting their first driver's license or people sharing an apartment who don't have their name on a lease--can run into issues.

In the Netherlands, the government already keeps track of everyone’s address. If you move, you have to register your new address with the municipality within a certain time frame. (IIRC 2 weeks)

The US is sort of loosey-goosey partly because we're not real big on getting registered with authorities and partly because the states have their own jurisdictions. So, if you're legitimately a digital nomad you sort of would have to do one or more things that are probably in a quasi-gray legal area so you can get ID and not be considered a tax evader.

Yes, and that gets really "interesting" when you don't have a stable address of residence (e.g. because you are traveling for an extended period of time, possibly in-and-out of the country).

In some cases, you can get basically locked out of all essential services, including bank account closures, not being able to make payments (especially now with these laws), etc.

Real fun!

Jesus that's freaky. Talk about government overreach.

This seems like a pretty basic thing for a government to do. They need to know your address for a lot of things. For example: taxes (notification that you need to file, your returns, etc). Voting (they send your voters pass to your registered address), fines (if you get caught by a speed camera they need to know where the car’s owner lives). Reminders that you need to renew your car’s annual inspection. Etc.

How would you handle those things without the government knowing your address?

I live in the US and most of those are not a thing.

I need to file taxes but no one sends me a reminder. My town asks me to verify my address once a year but nothing (other than possibly being eventually removed from voting rolls) happens if I don't. Driver's license and registration are supposed to be your current address but again I'm not sure anything especially happens if they aren't. No one sends me anything to remind me to get my inspection updated.

So I have a supposedly current address on file with various government agencies but AFAIK there is absolutely no rule that, if I pick up and move I have to tell anyone. I do need to file taxes correctly although, as I wrote elsewhere, if I don't have a permanent address that's simultaneously perfectly legal and something of an edge case.

> This seems like a pretty basic thing for a government to do.

Then why is it only EU countries and authoritarian governments that do it?

> They need to know your address for a lot of things.

And when those things come up, they can ask your address. But requiring people to register in general is a step too far.

> They need to know your address for a lot of things.

>> And when those things come up, they can ask your address.

How would they do that if they don't have your address? For example: a decent amount of elderly don't use the internet, how would they be contacted?

> How would they do that if they don't have your address?

If you need to deal with taxes, you submit your address to the tax agency.

If you need to deal with license stuff, you deal with the equivalent of the DMV.

And so on.

There's no need to just file your address with the government 'in general'.

> a decent amount of elderly don't use the internet, how would they be contacted?

Internet is kind of irrelevant. Most government agencies don't use the internet to contact people unless they specifically opt in and the agency offers that.

They would use your last known address, or wait for you to contact them.

What country do you live in? For many highly developed democracies, this is normal and not scary.

Currently the US, but formerly Australia, Ireland, Scotland, Germany and Canada.

I've never had to register my address anywhere unless I have a drivers license.

How can you live in Germany without registering an address? Were you just visiting?

Registering the address will get you the tax number, which is necessary to be paid.

The health insurance (also mandatory when working) would need a registered address.

I was there for over a year.

I did have a tax number, since I got paid and presumably paid taxes.

I never went anywhere just to register my address though. That sounds so insane to me.

Man, I wish I could "presumably" pay taxes like you... :)

I mean they were definitely paid. I never bothered filing a return or anything though, so I just never got any kind of refund assuming I would have.

My point being that you get a tax number after your first address registration ("Anmeldung einer Wohnung")

I don't think I had my apartment yet when I got my tax number, but OK.

Still a crappy system.

> Germany

You broke the law if you were a resident of Germany and didn't register yourself.

Well, that sucks. Then again, shitty laws don't deserve to be followed.

You think Europe would have learned a thing or two from WW2 and what was going down on the continent. I guess some behaviors are just too culturally ingrained.

> shitty laws don't deserve to be followed

You mean, you have to be ready to be punished for breaqking shitty laws just to point to their shittiness.

> You mean, you have to be ready to be punished for breaqking shitty laws just to point to their shittiness.

Sure, but in my case nothing happened, so, meh?

> You need proof of address too, it's not enough to have just an ID.

Yes, but you don’t need a bill for that, you can just get it from the municipality where you are registered.

> A passport is good, but you should also be aware that not everyone has a passport or drivers license.

Anyone age 14 and up is required by law to be able to show an ID when asked. So yeah, everyone here has an ID.

> My first bank account was a deal my mother made with the bank where she acted as guarantor.

The rules for children are different. Once you turn 18 you need to ID yourself to the bank. If you don’t do this your account will be blocked. You will be informed of this shortly before you turn 18.

> having a right to a thing is not the same as actually getting it; there is a lot of anti-fraud legislation that exists and must be complied with. The bank isn't just going to fully open an account with nothing but an ID

You have a right to a basic account, not necessarily full service. You can send/receive money and get a debit card. Anything else, credit cards, loans, etc. are of course not included.

And sure, if you’ve been convicted of fraud or anything like that, that’s an exception.

> Yes, but you don’t need a bill for that, you can just get it from the municipality where you are registered.

You can't "just" get it if you don't have a fixed address, or if the address isn't eligible for registration (the rules for that are rather strict).

Netherlands is one if the hardest countries if you end up in an "exceptional" situation; you can work around "proof of address" (not always, but frequently), but it's much harder to work around the municipal registration.

Yes, there are rules for exceptions (e.g. "briefadres") and there's stuff like https://www.basisbankrekening.nl – but in reality people are so strict with this that it might as well not exist for vast swaths of people.

If you've never been in an exceptional situation you think it's easy and works grand, and it does, right up to the point it doesn't, at which point you're pretty fucked. People are unaware because they've never experienced it, but it's really awful.

Last year it took me 5 months and a lot of proverbial "banging fist on the table" to get a bank account in the Netherlands. It took me about 2 weeks in Ireland. Just sayin'

What makes your situation exceptional?

I returned to Netherlands after many years abroad and didn't have anything set up except a tax number (BSN) like everyone. This may not sound too bad, but:

- Few people are willing to rent to you if you don't have a Dutch bank account and current registration.

- You can't get registration without a place to rent that qualifies (and many places don't).

I was earning €90k/year at the time; it wasn't a money issue.

> Yes, but you don’t need a bill for that, you can just get it from the municipality where you are registered.

I don't know how it is in Sweden or in the Netherlands, but here in France, I needed a bill or some other "proof of address" to register to vote with the town hall. I had been living in the same apartment for years, and they never seemed to require any proof before sending me the papers asking for the local taxes.

> Yes, but you don’t need a bill for that, you can just get it from the municipality where you are registered.

Yeah, that's not how it works in all European countries. Which can get really "interesting" in some cases, believe me (I've lived through that).

I've also been requested proof of employment, which is also interesting when you're unemployed. In one of the countries, they said I can just give them proof of unemployment benefits... which I don't have, because I left my job willingly.

And then they told me: "well, in that case you can get proof of unemployment from the municipality". Except... that I'm not even living in your damn country and the municipality where I live doesn't even know whether I'm working or not (why would they?!).

But this does not even compare to all the problems I've had when I've not been living in the same place stably for an extended period of time. It has been an absolute hell in some cases, because institutions (governments, banks, lawyers, etc) simply do not account for this possibility. They all assume that you have a stable address of residence.

In some countries you can't even receive some types of registered mail unless it is addressed exactly to where you are staying at that moment.

> You have a right to a basic account, not necessarily full service.

I don't think that's how it works. The governments have created a legal requirement for banks to provide minimum banking services, yes. But banks still have to comply with many other very strict requirements and customers may not be able to fulfill them, which prevents them from opening bank accounts.

>But this does not even compare to all the problems I've had where I've not been living in the same place stably for an extended period of time. It has been an absolute hell in some cases, because institutions (governments, banks, etc) simply do not account for this possibility. They all assume that you have a stable address of residence.

I haven't personally had this issue but I know someone who did in the US. No permanent address; they were doing a lot of traveling.

Nothing wrong/illegal about that. But, by the books, it means they can't get a driver's license and other important documents. So you basically have to lie. Either use a third-party digital nomad service (which I understand some states may flag) or find a trustworthy friend or relative to "live" with (who will forward important mail to you and vouch for you if needed--which is what they did). There are still potential issues with respect to things like jury duty but these can mostly work although they're almost certainly at least marginally fraudulent.

    In some countries you can't even receive some types of registered mail unless it is addressed exactly to where you are staying at that moment.

This makes good sense to me in countries where you need to register you home address with the local govt. Then registered mail delivery becomes a form of ID check. This is normal in Japan and other places.

But the point is that it makes it hard or impossible to receive that type of mail if you travel frequently...

It varies wildly between banks. Proof of address isn't a systemic requirement, it's a soft credit check that unlocks profitable functions.

Many banks (Santander, HSBC just two I checked) have entry points for people who are genuinely homeless. And accepted ID can include simple government things like council tax or a driver's license, but also just a letter from your employer or school. Again these are soft checks.

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