Hacker News Reader

Comment by iamwil | Hacker News Reader

I've always wanted a site that--instead of telling which product was the best--told me how to look for quality in the category I'm interested in. What does good look like? What makes a good quality water hose? What are the unsung features and considerations for drying hooks? What does quality look like in jeans? Am I paying for the brand or an actual meticulous craft?

wirecutter might have been that at one point, but I find it doesn't fill that gap for me. As I've gotten older, I'd rather have a few quality things, rather than a whole bunch of good enough things that I'd throw away next year.

View on HN

It’s obviously only for the product categories that they sell, but REI’s expert advice posts are close to this. For example, here is their post on downhill skis: https://www.rei.com/learn/expert-advice/downhill-skis.html

They explain all of the parameters that matter when making a decision on what to buy. It’s left to you to evaluate individual products and brands along those parameters for your preferences and needs.

I may not buy everything from REI, but I often do, and these posts are a big reason why.

Tangential, but about REI and their "real enthusiast" nature....

I've been an REI member for.....many many years. I stop by every time I visit the whites in NH, so probs 6-10 times a year.

I have not purchased a single item in years. costs are out of control. "glamour hiking/camping" customers are making REI more off of camping meals and north face t shirts than they ever have off survivalist classes or good quality hiking gear from france.

REI branded "hiking pants" are 100 USD. Made in china, lowest quality possible. My 7 dollar puma running pants are exactly the same and saw me hike through ireland just fine.

>REI branded "hiking pants" are 100 USD. Made in china, lowest quality possible. My 7 dollar puma running pants are exactly the same and saw me hike through ireland just fine.

False. A lot of REI brand stuff is made by the same factories that make stuff for other high-end outdoor brands. They still tend to use higher-quality fabrics and construction. They tend to use things like YKK zippers that stand up to years of use. They’ll typically have bar tacks and double stitching in high-stress areas so they won’t fail when you actually use them. They also tend to get really positive reviews on most of their REI-brand items, and their warranty is great. Lastly, there are usually great sales on their REI-branded stuff, so it’s not hard to get 30-50% off the already-lower-than-other-brands price. Yes, they do make some hiking pants that are $100 right now, but they also have others that are $50 and $60.

Do you need high-end hiking-specific pants to hike? No, but I find that they can be much more comfortable and sweat-wicking + fast-drying, in addition to lightweight yet durable with plenty of useful pockets and construction that lasts years.

I find that many folks who make comments like this are the same folks complaining that nothing is made in the US anymore and nothing lasts anymore. Both are untrue, it’s just that the bottom end of the market has proven much more popular with consumers, and many more companies have made ever cheaper and lower-quality products available to satisfy this demand.

A positive take would be that it’s great how we have so much variety available in quality and price points for any given product today. A more negative view is that we’ve made the good stuff even more expensive as now it’s they’re niche luxury items instead of just having the common versions be decent quality because people keep buying the cheapest possible junk regardless of quality because they’re not intelligent enough to understand or appreciate the difference nor the global economics which affect manufacture and distribution of these goods.

I'll ignore the assumptions you made about me as a person and take it as us just not knowing each other.

I'm not exaggerating, and my point is that I don't need high end gear. I want the equivilent of Quechua, an excellent, affordable, mid quality outdoor gear supplier in EU (you can find in surplus stores here occasionally). I have an 18 dollar raincoat from them that I have summited Washington with several times over 8 years now years, that I picked up in ireland after literally forgetting my raincoat.

I cannot walk out of REI with a raincoat that is "lightweight and breathable" (meaning, a cheap shell) for less than 110 dollars.

Would you like me to take a photo of the YKK zipper on my Quechua raincoat that again cost 18 dollars? In fact, I can probably guarantee you, to your point, that REI sources from the same manufacturers as Quechua, at 10x the cost.

I have merino wool socks made for lineme/winter laborers that cost, no joke, 7 dollars for 4 pairs. They absolutely blow REIs out of the water, not even considering cost.They are a no name brand and I got them from the TJ max at the base of a mountain in new hampshire.

Trust me, I want to think like you do, but REI is now an "experiences" company, not a company interested in furthering the middle class's ventures into the great outdoors. I say this as someone who chose to work there in my off time as a "hobby" job before the real sh*t hit the fan when they stopped sending actual checks for the co-op payments.

Thank you for this prime example of shilling behavior.

Responding specifically to the point on glamour hiking/camping:

REI definitely puts a huge focus on growing the outdoors activities market by being attractive to newcomers. And a large part of that is offering fashionable clothes and convenience options, and marketing hiking as a social-media-friendly lifestyle.

On balance, I think this is a good thing for the future of outdoors sports. The downside is an increase in unprepared hikers (dangerous) and overuse of easily accessible trails (unpleasant). But there’s a lot of pluses:

1. I can more easily convince my friends and coworkers from the city to go hiking with me.

2. I’m confident that the parks and trails that are popular and widely used will continue to exist for future generations.

3. This is a subtle point, but I think it’s very important: if you are someone whose parents never took you hiking/camping, and you don’t know how at all, then the combination of a) hiking being fashionable/cool and b) easy to learn about and buy gear for is critical to convince you to try it. Historically, camping in the US has mostly been a white activity. I am white, and to be clear there’s nothing wrong with that, but I like that many of my non-white friends whose parents never took them camping as kids are now interested in hiking and camping.

(I personally think the camping meals and $100 pants are silly, but that’s consumer capitalism for ya. It is what it is)

I’ll also point out amateur radio as a counterpoint, since that’s another activity that I have tried where the story looks very different:

1. There’s no way I could ever convince my friends to try it.

2. There is a very real chance that it will disappear in a generation under pressure by corporate interests who would like to utilize the spectrum.

3. There’s barely any young people joining the community for a variety of reasons.

Amateur radio is a dying activity. I’m grateful that the future of hiking and camping is much brighter, because I can imagine a world where it was also in decline.

There's no reason to buy things at full price there, especially clothes. Between the Outlet, regular sales, and garage sales, there's often deeply discounted gear and out of season clothing available.

If you want really affordable stuff, Walmart and Big 5 offer a lot of cheap outdoor gear that will do the job. REI caters to a different segment, mostly the mid high end. In between, Dick's etc. offer midrange stuff.

Some of the manufacturers (like Patagonia) offer used clothes directly too. But like you said, hiking clothes are often overpriced and any generic synthetic would likely do fine.

Personally I get my gear at REI because I want it to last (and they have a great return policy if it doesn't) but my clothes at Costco or used, and my consumables (backpacking food etc.) direct from manufacturers in small boxes.

Puma running pants are $50-$110: https://us.puma.com/us/en/men/clothing/pants?pref_sport=Runn...

Many clothing brands sell various quality of clothing at various price points using the same brand name. For example, I am currently wearing $25 Puma shoes from Costco, but I doubt they sell those on their official website, which is probably just their highest priced stuff.

“Outlet” malls in the US are also dumping grounds for lower priced and probably lower quality goods. They usually put a bigger, uglier logo and have wider fit so it does not compete with their higher priced products.

https://www.outdoorgearlab.com/ and https://www.rtings.com/ are two more awesome review sites for outdoor gear and electronics, specifically TVs and monitors but now also things like cameras and headphones.

I love that REI largely doesn’t sell any junk — even the cheapest thing in a category that they sell probably still works fine. Backcountry and MooseJaw are similar. We’re lucky to have so many good outdoor brands in the US.

The same cannot be said for home goods and things like appliances. Most of the market is disposable single-use junk. Reddit has r/BIFL (“Buy It For Life”) but there are some things, eg electric toothbrushes, where the best-functioning brand (Sonicare) do things like plastic weld their handles shut, so when the li-ion cell in there dies after 2 years, you’re meant to buy a new handle. Replacement battery kits can be found, though typically they use low-quality cells, require soldering, and have a high likelihood of damaging the case and waterproof seal due to the design of the thing. This is just one example, but I’ve found that more likely than not, “home electronics” fall into this category of unfortunately low-quality and hard-to-repair, so I try to avoid them entirely wherever I can.

Still other good are problematic to shop for and own. Trying to buy any durable goods (and even consumables) on Amazon these days requires a good deal of research. It’s pretty obvious which brands are the “WEKAPO” or “POPCHOSE” or other combination of gibberish (see https://youtu.be/4UrqlMfwUC4 on why), but there’s just SO MANY of these products flooding Amazon that it feels like digging through racks in a thrift shop or something. I wish they had a filter for something like “established brands only” but I know that a ton of their business these days is selling these low-quality products that are typically copies of other products.

The most frustrating result of all the SHNITPWR and VANLEONET for me is probably the impact on rwview sites. If you Google things like “best SUP 2023” you’ll get endless “review” sites that are just Amazon affiliate links with articles that are reworded (likely automated) product descriptions or pathetic paragraphs from pay-per-word authors that have obviously never used any of the products, showing you what amounts to 10 random products in a category from whatever from junk brands. I hope Google finds a way to PageRank these into the ground, and I wish Amazon would likewise do something to combat this behavior, as it’s making the modern shopping experience and the internet in general pretty awful.

There are some products like that, but the purpose of many of these review articles is to tell you things you can't see for yourself unless you have a bunch of lab equipment and lots of time.

Or in the case of Consumer Reports reliability ratings, a bunch of people you can survey.

I'd say that consumer reports is my.most trustworthy option for the categories it covers.

rtings.com does a good job of rating things according to use case, like a monitor might be rated of ‘Office’ or ‘Gaming’, and they detail how that scoring works too.

Notebookcheck.com is the only computer review site I’ll go to, simply because of their attention to detail and consistency around things like display specs. I just wish they’d make that data easier to consume.

Yes, although Wirecutter is frequently one of the inputs into my buying decision, I find the one-size-fits-all approach annoying at times--this is the best power strip, because we believe everyone needs at least eight outlets, and twelve is better, but more than twelve is too many. Well maybe I think anything with more than six outlets is too big, or maybe a right-angle plug is my most important criterion.

I can sometimes pick through "The competition" and find something that is slightly less awesome or slightly pricier, but that section reads like you'd be dumb to buy this model instead of our top pick, which also comes in purple.

It’s what annoys me of German darling test.de (Stiftung Warentest, they were set up as a trust by the government to avoid any kind of outside influence, customers pay for their data), their reviews are complete black boxes, no idea why anything was highly rated and there is no real background.

I far prefer ETM-Testmagazin.de, they are a for-profit company and also sell their tests, but they actually give you all their testing & measurement data while still giving recommendations and textual reviews. Maybe they are scummy, and I can’t tell, but considering that I find stiftung warentest mostly useless, they are still far superior.

> their reviews are complete black boxes

They are certainly not "complete black boxes". This page [0], for example, explains in detail their test procedure for vacuum cleaners.

Just an excerpt on durability testing (via deepl):

> Impact test (500 cycles): The hoovers drive over thresholds 10 000 times and bump into posts 1 000 times.

> Drop test: The suction nozzle must survive 1 200 drops from a height of 80 centimetres.

> Cable pull-out test: 6 000 pulls.

> Test of hose attachments: 40 000 swings with the connection nozzle clamped.

> Squeezing the pipes, hoses and auxiliary air adjusters: The testers load them with about 70 kilograms for ten seconds.

[0]: https://www.test.de/Staubsauger-im-Test-1838262-1838266/

That is one of the better ones, most (or at least anything I ever looked at) have far shorter and less detailed "so testen wir" sections. But I guess complete blackbox is incorrect. I’d still want actual data in most cases.

I would presume they are doing it on purpose, so that industry doesn't optimize for their tests when they develop their next product.

Your approach to ask specific questions is a good one. I've found that the key to avoiding persuasion by reviewers with undisclosed conflicts of interest—which includes Reddit comments made by people who bought accounts with a posting history to promote a product, and even YouTube video creators who do not disclose their sponsorships—is to pay close attention to the specific details of reviews.

Paid reviews often have lots of emotional arguments (such as "I've been missing out," "I can't imagine life without it," or "I LOVE the one I have") without substance. Even if some of these comments are from people who are genuinely happy, the comments are still uninformative and don't help you understand the strengths and weaknesses of a product, versus alternatives.

More detailed reviews—especially those that include fairly-written comparisons with compelling alternatives—give you the information to think critically and make your own judgement on whether a product or service is worth purchasing.

For product research, I've also found it useful to seek out negative reports or complaints about products breaking over time. That can help you factor in the long-term costs of owning something new: you can learn that you may need to purchase replacement parts for a product over time (adding a recurring maintenance cost), or that certain products cannot be repaired, and will likely require a complete replacement after a few years.

You may want Rtings?

They have detail methodology for each product category. For example, TV [1]

If you open a random TV ([2]) and hover on the "(?)" buttons on the right, you can see the breakdown of each test, and if you click on each test it will give you the methods used.

For example, input lag:

[1] https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/changelogs/1-11

[2] https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/s90c-oled

[3] https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/inputs/input-lag

> I've always wanted a site that--instead of telling which product was the best--told me how to look for quality in the category I'm interested in. What does good look like? What makes a good quality water hose? What are the unsung features and considerations for drying hooks? What does quality look like in jeans? Am I paying for the brand or an actual meticulous craft?

This would have been very useful for me, even back when Wirecutter was the best option available.

Living in Canada means that I have reduced access to specific models of items; Wirecutter might recommend something great that I can buy on Amazon, or it might recommend something great that literally no retailer in Canada sells, or which costs twice as much in Canada as it does in the US for some reason. Sometimes I was able to grab the runner-up, or they would mention in the review that their pick, the DDW1345-B was 'nearly identical to the DDW1344-A, but with three extra HDMI ports but the same tungsten-carbide drill bits', so I could pick up the DDW1344-A knowing that if I didn't need those ports it was essentially the same as a recommendation.

It was endlessly frustrating, though, when they would recommend exactly what I was looking for (a combination air purifier/humidifier/oscillating fan!) for a reasonable price ($200!) which I either couldn't get or couldn't justify the Canadian price of ($450 plus $88 shipping, arrives in three months). I ended up finding other sites which offered perhaps less rigorous testing but would recommend things I could actually get (shoutout to RTings for even more in-depth testing of home theatre equipment and also being located in Canada).

> I'd rather have a few quality things, rather than a whole bunch of good enough things that I'd throw away next year.

This reminds me of a girl I once dated. She kept criticizing me for spending $8.99 on a water pitcher when I could get one at the dollar store "for like a buck" and "just replace it every year". It blew my mind. Why do I want to go shopping for a new water pitcher every year when I can just buy one and use it for way longer than our relationship is going to last?

Lee Valley does this for me for anything tools and garden related. The Discover section on their website is excellent for beginners!

https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/discover

Most major product categories have their own niche subreddit and many are excellent for that kind of advice. Here are some I recommend: r/VacuumCleaners, r/OfficeChairs, r/rawdenim/, r/RunningShoeGeeks, r/goodyearwelt, r/Monitors.

Marketers have been aware of this for years and savvy brands have invested heavily in astroturfing enthusiast forums with legitimate-looking content promoting their products. That coupled with weird group-think dynamics leading to cult opinions that aren't well grounded has made the "look it up on reddit" path a lot less reliable in the past 5 years.

The current chat models will attempt to help you do that. Might be sufficient?

You mean combine sort of related information from all over the internet into new statistically generated phrases that appear to answer the question, but still contain all kinds of hallucinations, fabrications, and wrong statements?

Then yes, they do.

Of course they will, they’ll answer whatever you ask. How do you know if what they’re saying is true?

Reply on news.ycombinator.com