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Comment by Simulacra | Hacker News Reader

Short of locking the doors, what can be done to prevent criminal flash mobs?

Organized shoplifting has long been a problem.

My mom sold men's clothing at Macy's in the sleepy city of Manchester, NH and (circa 1990) one day after she left a whole family came in and the father distracted the sales clerk while mom and the kids cleaned out a few rows of suits. The security guard came running but they were already gone when the clerk realized what happened.

She talked frequently with the security guards about the problems they faced: one was run over by a car by an escaping shoplifter. They weren't allowed to fight back under any circumstance because Macy's could be sued by anyone who was attacked by a security guard.

This book

https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/black-ma...

has an excellent description of an organized shoplifting network in New York City in the 1970s that would sometimes steal goods from delivery trucks behind shops and then fence them at stores in Harlem. (It's a great book, it has descriptions of street life and police corruption that are right out of KRS-One's albums like Criminally Minded.)

I worked at a Tower Records 24 years ago, and being in a college town, we had a high level of theft, perhaps not so organized.

We had no security guards, although we did have a Loss Prevention specialist who would visit on occasion, so basically it was up to clerks and managers to detect any shoplifting.

Of course we were absolutely forbidden from pursuing anyone beyond our front door. Yet, while I was employed there, at least one clerk rushed outside and tackled a thief, recovering the goods. He was roundly praised, but I felt that was a bad idea, because he'd violated policy and could've gotten himself and the store in a lot of trouble.

Being a CD store, we had shelves chock full of high-value, high-demand, small and concealable merchandise. I can't remember the exact nature of our anti-theft measures, but they were minimal. Tower soon went out of business anyway, so perhaps they simply didn't care anymore.

Punish crime?

Walk me through your reasoning? These flash mobs wouldn’t happen if…

There was substantial risk of being prosecuted, or failing that, shot and killed.

Law enforcement works on statistics and psychology. We do not have nearly enough police or prisons to prosecute dramatically more people. And the US is already the most incarcerated country; this “just build more jails” reasoning seems as suspect as “the solution to having the highest rates of gun violence is more guns”.

https://ktla.com/news/local-news/3-arrested-for-luxury-handb...

They've already caught some of them. This simply isn't true.

And what happens after they're caught...?

Why don’t you speculate for us?

I don't have to speculate; that would be your department. There are records. What happens after they are arrested is that they're released to the same communities they attacked previously.

They're currently being charged with felonies, but they all 3 have been released with $20,000 bail.

The US already have one of the highest incarceration rates in the world so it seems like that doesn't work.

Not GP but ...

... if the people involved in them were sent to jail.

Bingo. This is the real issue. DAs are refusing to prosecute, so criminals are back on the street within hours or days of being arrested.

It's so bad that cops in Southern California try very hard to find evidence that will allow them to hand a criminal over to the feds -- because federal prosecutors will actually prosecute, but state prosecutors will not. (Source: I'm friends with a cop in socal who specializes in theft crime rings)

We need to throw out these inept district attorneys and never elect such people again. A bigger question: how did they get elected en-mass in the first place?

This is a trope but one poorly founded in fact. For example, Chesa Boudin was recalled in SF for his supposed unwillingness to prosecute, but in fact conducted sting operations to target exactly this sort of organized crime:

https://abc7news.com/international-fencing-operation-sf-boba...

Guess who declined to help with the logistics of this operation? Surprise, SFPD:

https://sfist.com/2022/05/23/report-sfpd-refused-to-particip...

It's extremely easy for cops to do nothing and then blame the prosecutor when people complain, giving themselves significant leverage over the political process with the headache of electoral accountability. There are a lot of bent cops to go round.

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/fbi-pittsburg-antioch-...

Recall that an executive administrator of the San Jose police union was arrested earlier this year for running a fentanyl dealing operation out of the police union HQ.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndca/pr/san-jose-police-union-e...

This is not to give a pass to DAs, but to suggest that your characterization of the issue is overly simplistic.

PD, DAs, Judges, who cares?

The point being made is that the current structure gives people a free pass for this behavior, hence they engage in it.

> how did they get elected en-mass in the first place?

It's a reaction to unjust laws, for-profit prison systems, lack of police accountability, and high rates of recidivism from not treating the cause of lots of crime.

If that's the case, then it's abundantly clear that the reaction is causing even more problems.

Or perhaps dismantling a cancer is leaving the patient susceptible to pneumonia.

Can you point to a case of a DA refusing to prosecute a case of organized theft like this?

https://ktla.com/news/local-news/3-arrested-for-luxury-handb...

Some of them are already in jail.

Your link does not say they are in jail. Furthermore, the CDRC search [1] does not show any inmates with the names from the article in the California system, so what made you think they are in jail exactly?

1. https://inmatelocator.cdcr.ca.gov/search.aspx

https://app5.lasd.org/iic/

Use the sheriff's website. You'll find them there. It looks like all 3 have bonded out on 20,000$ bond.

The sheriff's website just confirms that they had been released and not in jail.

... participating in one carried a 2% risk of death and a 10% risk of permanent disability

Yes, because that’s what stopped people from doing drugs, speeding or downhill skiing

But those all have much better odds, by orders of magnitude.

... the participants were sitting in jail following their last attempt at pulling something like this.

…the people doing the flash mob were in jail

exactly. If they wanted to stop it they could.

They've already caught, arrested and charged some of these people.

Crime is down, overall. I don't think we should make laws or changes based on the rare event like this.

But the real prevention is "make living your life possible for everyone". People whose needs are met don't generally go on risky crime sprees like this.

Make housing, healthcare, and food affordable. Give childcare, support education. Crime will plummet.

Decades ago in Eastern Europe (don't know about now), shops were set up so that all goods were behind counters. When you wanted to buy something, you paid at the register in front, then showed the receipt to the clerk at the appropriate counter. I've wondered whether that arrangement was to prevent theft or to increase employment.

Luxury goods will always be targeted cuz of how effective Marketing of luxury goods has become. If you convince the chimp troupe diamonds are magical, a large part ot what you end up spending on is securing your diamonds in vaults of ever growing complexity.

Universal basic income? You need to cure desperation so people don't wind up having to do this.

These people are not doing this out of desperation.

Lots of countries have armed security guards - and I mean rifles and bullet proof vests.

I think sadly that's what well see here too.

Which countries have rifle-wielding security guards in clothing shops?

You're not going to see this in California, you are wildly out of touch.

I used to think abortion was a solved issue, everyone agreed child labor was bad, we wouldn't have to worry about hurricanes, etc.

This timeline hasn't exactly proven stellar so far.

You're right though - California did a good job restricting guns. Until that gets overturned (which at this point, I think it will). On the other hand the reason California is so for gun control was originally to prevent the Black Panthers from marching with guns (seriously - gun control in California is deeply racist in origin).

Given all this I just think we'll get there and we'll get there faster than we expected, and we'll all have to pretend to be shocked and then it will become normal.

https://koryogroup.com/blog/who-were-the-rooftop-koreans

Outlaw police unions and force cops to do their jobs instead of being another gang running an extortion racket.

Exploding dye packs

At this level of coordinated force, you just make sure you steal the gizmo that removes the dye pack while you're there. Though they probably already have dozens of such devices.

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That’s not the responsibility of the retailer, it’s the responsibility of the government.

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