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Comment by bgdam | Hacker News Reader

As an immigrant (and a very well paid one paying obnoxiously high taxes), I've recommended every single person asking if they should move from India to Germany to not to. The only upgrade is in cleaner air to breathe and safety from crime. If you're in the higher earning bracket in India, then you get these there itself. So then moving to Germany from India is like stepping back into 1996.

Every single thing is so obsolete. Nothing is digitized. Everything requires a giant stack of actual paperwork to be taken to an office where the whims of the clerk dictate everything. A million rules exist in the hopes that they cover all possible scenarios, but inevitable they don't and if you happen to have a scenario which is not covered, you're shit out of luck because the clerk is sure as shit not going to put their ass on the line and make a decision not explicitly present in the rule book.

You pay through the nose for health insurance, but when you need to find a doctor, none can take you because their quota of public insurance patients is done for the quarter. If I paid the same amount in insurance in India, I'd have a helicopter flown out every time I stubbed my toe.

And then there's the wait time for everything. Appointment for visa extension: 8 months. Driving license conversion: 1 year. German exam: 5 months. What, you want the results for your exam also? Better wait another year then. Honestly Germany is a shit show, and if I hadn't already invested so much time, money and energy into this god forsaken country, I'd be out of here in a heartbeat.

But the worst part of all this is - the vast majority of Germans think this is all acceptable and okay. If you go to the /r/germany or /r/de subreddits, any thread with genuine complaints will be drowned in responses from native Germans who naively believe that Germany is a great country to live in because they either don't have these problems, or they know how to work the system and get their results. So there is no voting pressure to get things to change. So long as the omas and opas get their pension, Germany will stay as it is for ever - there is no need to change in their view.

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I'm also an Indian guy working in Germany paying "obnoxiously high taxes", and my experience has been quite different.

> The only upgrade is in cleaner air to breathe and safety from crime

- Easy access to parks

- Good public transport (I used to live in Delhi, and it has an okay metro connectivity, but nowhere close to what even smaller German cities have).

- Traffic. I liked living in India, but holy shit, the traffic is the worst.

- It's a whole lot quieter which I really care about. I can hear birds chirping right now very close to Berlin's city center.

- Lots of activities to do if you're young.

- I know people complain about beauraucracy here, but I would be very surprised if India handles incoming migrant cases really smoothly either.

> But the worst part of all this is - the vast majority of Germans think this is all acceptable and okay. If you go to the /r/germany or /r/de subreddits, any thread with genuine complaints will be drowned in responses from native Germans who foolishly believe that Germany is a great country to live in because they either don't have these problems, or they know how to work the system and get their results.

Maybe it wasn't what you said, but how you said it. I'm judging based on your tone in this post. If you're this rude to people, expect them to dismiss your opinion even if you're making valid points.

It's not only rosy for me either.

- Cellphone coverage and mobile data is strangely expensive here for reasons I don't understand.

- Finding appartments is really difficult. But it's a problem that all big cities in Europe face. I wish some of my taxes would go towards making affordable mass housing.

- It's hard to learn a new language as an adult (not really the fault of Germans). You definitely run into German fairly often, websites, talking to cashiers, etc.

P.S. Obnoxiously high is a stretch. Yes, in India your taxes max out at 30% percent (roughly), which isn't nothing but you don't get much value out of it. In Germany, it maxes out at 45% but it pays for good quality education for everyone.

There are a lot of things you don't get in big cities in India, which you can easily get if you're in a small town or a village. Parks, trafic, quiet are all part of that.

That said, there are indeed a lot more things that are in general better in Germany than in India, and this rant of mine was the result of a year of frustrated dealings with German bureaucracy (not that that makes any of the points I raised invalid though).

> Maybe it wasn't what you said, but how you said it. I'm judging based on your tone in this post. If you're this rude to people, expect them to dismiss your opinion even if you're making valid points.

Actually, whenever I've had in person conversations with Germans, after they get to the point where they realize that immigrants don't have the same experience as they do, they quickly accept that there should be change. However, the vast majority needs to understand this and push for it. Otherwise there is zero political will to fix these things. And the large majority don't have a friendly neighbourhood immigrant who will sit and tell them all the problems they face.

> P.S. Obnoxiously high is a stretch.

If you are single, you get zero benefits out of the system and are just paying into a pot you cannot touch. So yes it's obnoxiously high when you consider you don't see much benefits from it. I do understand the social nature of contributions, but that doesn't make my wallet hurt any less whenever I receive my paycheck.

I didn't include the things you listed as problems because these are there in any country you would want to move to (except maybe cheap/better mobile internet). It's okay to have to learn German - it's the language of the country I chose to live in, and it is in some ways a much more logical language than English .

Housing crisis exists pretty much everywhere. Again can't see any political will anywhere to change this - which surprises me as this is something that arguably impacts Germans more than immigrants.

> That said, there are indeed a lot more things that are in general better in Germany than in India, and this rant of mine was the result of a year of frustrated dealings with German bureaucracy (not that that makes any of the points I raised invalid though).

And as a German let me say that you are totally right, when it comes to the bureaucracy. While most of the time the bureaucracy doesn't fell too bad for standard German citizens, I can well imagine that it is horrible for you and that it feels really oldfashioned.

All other points are not wrong but debatable, which dhruvrajvanshi already did. The problems that our nations face are both abundant but also quite different.

As an aside: I also perceived you're post as too blunt and slightly unfair, just as some of the people in the sub-reddits probably felt. On the other hand sub-reddits are full of awful people and I can imagine that you have to deal with a lot of rudeness and prejudices yourself. I could understand where you were coming from and understood why you expressed yourself in this way after beuing frustrated by the German Bureaucracy. The quoted clarification was useful.

Just one note on my experience finding an apartment as an Ausländer there, I overpaid and had few options until I greatly grew my local network. So many apartments changed hands between friends/friends-of-friends -- person moving out introduces new person to landlord basically -- that they never make it to any property listing. And these are the best and cheapest apartments. Landlords I dealt with owned one or two apartments, instead of whole buildings so that approach worked well for them.

> Nothing is digitized.

That's not true. But it depends very strong on the City and task to which degree something is digitized. The problems are federation and privacy-laws, which exist for historical reasons. Basically, every city is doing their own thing, and sharing of data has been made hard for public services for a long time. Germany is moving away from this, but because of the big clusterfuck of everything, it takes a while, and not everyone moves at the same speed. And things have become better fast in the last years, because of the pandemia. So it might be already very different from when you made your experiences.

> But the worst part of all this is - the vast majority of Germans think this is all acceptable and okay.

Nobody thinks that, but most process the normal citizen encounter, are fast and people know how to avoid the problems. This is a more general problem of Germany, that many things depends on you having the necessary knowledge and experience about the system to get things done fast.

> If you go to the /r/germany or /r/de subreddits, any thread with genuine complaints will be drowned in responses from native Germans who foolishly believe that Germany is a great country

Those are often parodies, German humor. The stupid dry level to say, but overall they just joke about the attitude of Germany and its rules. And overall, Germany is in fact not a bad country to live, there are far worse countries, like North Korea, Russia, parts of Ukraine, parts of USA.. At least people have Beer and Döner.

A bit rough to expect highly skilled labor to move to a country saying it's better than north korea and Russia. I guess the bar is that low eh

Best to read that entire last line about German humor

That is just your experience. You say as if things in India are all bed of roses. No major city in India (forget small towns) can boast of breathable air, manageable traffic, potable water from the tap or 24 hours of electricity. Women's safety - lol. Finding a place where there is a clean lake or some non-polluted piece of nature - forget that in North India.

Not to mention as a minority, who knows when you can be lynched or arrested for stating your opinion.

People come here, reek of privilege, miss their life in India where they had 3 servants for everything and also forget that if they have to go to any government office in India they have to pay bribes.

Also, please show some respect to the country you live in.

> That is just your experience. You say as if things in India are all bed of roses. No major city in India (forget small towns) can boast of breathable air, manageable traffic, potable water from the tap or 24 hours of electricity. Women's safety - lol. Finding a place where there is a clean lake or some non-polluted piece of nature - forget that in North India.

I think they were pretty clear about that:

> > If you're in the higher earning bracket in India, then you get these there itself.

It's not a comment from a "commoner", clearly.

> People come here, reek of privilege, miss their life in India where they had 3 servants for everything and also forget that if they have to go to any government office in India they have to pay bribes.

Unfortunately these are the exact people that Germany wants moving into their country - because they're the one's who pay the high taxes. Do you think Germany is throwing open their doors for the underprivileged folk of the developing world? Unless you're a refugee from a war torn land, they are not doing that. They don't want you here. Case in point - the new immigration reform allows you to bring your parents on FRV only if you're coming here on a high paying blue card job.

So if your goal is to explicitly attract these kinds of privileged individuals, then it's pointless to get pissed off when they speak from their position of privilege.

> Also, please show some respect to the country you live in.

So what, I should kow tow to a broken system and praise it? No thanks. People and countries should be able to take criticism. Also, just because I complain about everything that is bad doesn't mean that there is nothing good. It's just that none of them apply to a thread about Germany's dire immigration situation.

> So what, I should kow tow to a broken system and praise it? No thanks. People and countries should be able to take criticism. Also, just because I complain about everything that is bad doesn't mean that there is nothing good. It's just that none of them apply to a thread about Germany's dire immigration situation.

You don't kow tow have to but never attack a group of people like "They will never change". Looking at the history Germans are one people that happily criticise themselves. Even incl. racism.

Germans happily and always criticise the bureacracy. If you are not this aggressive in stereotyping then may be you are in a bubble without German friends/co-workers.

What broken system? You have some pain points.

BTW, that headline is correct but it takes only one year and then same Economist will reverse the headline.

Until Lehman bros crashed every one called Germany sickman of europe. Then it became so much praise for their great Economics powerhouse.

> You don't kow tow have to but never attack a group of people like "They will never change".

This is my view formed after living in Germany for the better part of a decade and seeing multiple Governments push back modernization projects and allocate the budget intended for them to populist people pleasing measures - and then seeing a lot of Germans agree with these measures. It's also formed from a lot of discussion on the /r/german subreddit and with Germans I know personally of varying age groups - most of them do not believe these are big problems or that substantial effort has to be put into to change them.

> Even incl. racism.

I don't want to talk about this as it is off-topic for the post, but racism is alive and very healthy in Germany. It's just not as "in-your-face" as in other countries which are generally thought of as having "racism problems".

> Unfortunately these are the exact people that Germany wants moving into their country - because they're the one's who pay the high taxes.

Not sure about that. The ideal immigrant to a country is young and well educated. Through labour, they will contribute immensely to society and pay top income tax.

In constrast, some rich people who park their wealth in offshore tax heavens and live off passive income don't contribute much, beyond rising real estate prices.

Fair enough. Respect your opinion.

All I know, in Delhi I was using 1 inhaler in 1 week, in Germany it is 1 inhaler in 1 year. That is worth something to me.

> Unfortunately these are the exact people that Germany wants moving into their country

Germany is already open for work for ALL of the EU member states and associated countries. The EU has a "freedom to move for goods, persons, services and capital" as one of the four principles. That means EVERYONE of the EU, who can afford the life in Germany, could move here.

Additionally we have people coming from other countries, incl. India on visas: students, workers, ... plus Germany currently hosts around 1 million persons from the Ukraine, because of the war.

> because they're the one's who pay the high taxes.

Germany needs workers in many professions: construction workers, in agriculture, nurses, software developers, ...

They come from the EU and from outside the EU. For EU citizens its relatively easy to move to other countries. The EU also made it easy for people from the Ukraine, to help the war refugees.

sounds like you miss your servants which happen to be a little too expensive for you here ... and you even have to treat them respectful. what a bummer

"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."

"Don't be snarky."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

i think my comment was justified and quite on point. it is very much a cultural thing in india to have servants from a lower and less respected caste. it's not nice but that's how it is. and yes, the caste system is very much racist.

I don't know what to tell you other than that you broke the first guideline I quoted by caricaturing what the other person had written, and you broke the second guideline I quoted by being sarcastic and needlessly personal.

Way to assume. I love how literally everyone who criticizes Germany about being slow and inefficient is assumed to come from a place of privilege. If I missed by "servants" I'd be complaining about separating my garbage and having to make multiple trips to the recyclehof, not about bureaucracy sucking the life out of people.

Please don't respond to a bad comment by breaking the site guidelines yourself. That only makes things worse.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

india is itself infamous for escalating bureaucracy.

Yes, but many countries aren’t like this. In many countries, administration is efficient. Why compare yourself to one notorious for poor administration

this is a thread building up a context ... that's why.

anyway - what are those countries? everybody would like to know!

Switzerland, Scandinavia, AFAIK Estonia.

The UAE has excellent administration.

switzerland: possible - but many migrants complain about it being almost impossible to get accepted there beyond being a law abiding work force.

scandinavia: (not a country) strong contestants.

estonia: not really - i have several estonian friends who will give you a long list of reasons why germany is the better place to live and work. personally, i really like estonia. have been there many times.

uae (or singapure): sure ... but you are discrediting yourself by even mentioning those in this list or possibly considering them as a place to live.

first three are all in EU by the way - and very close to germany. so the good news is that you can just easily try to move there. have a nice trip.

I live in Switzerland already(and they are not in the EU).

I was dreading the anmeldung bureacratic process in Berlin and found them to be nice and accommodating and even flexible to me being slightly late and needing to go acquire further documents. My personal experience has been good.

Anmeldung is one very small, very simple thing. Have you been to your Ausländerbehörde yet?

Yes, multiple times. The first time was long and annoying because I didn't know about the visa extension laws.

The other times were easy, despite being nerveracking.

How did you even get appointments? It's impossible to get appointments at Auslandbehörde

Check every day at 6am, multiple times per day

How I wish my city would have an open appointment booking system. Instead I get to send an email, and then wait for a response for the next 4-6 months. Thankfully once you get that initial response the rest of the process moves smoothly now that there is an actual person you can talk to directly.

Mm yes, renovating your house again? No problem!

> If I paid the same amount in insurance in India, I'd have a helicopter flown out every time I stubbed my toe.

You are free to go private if you earn more than 60k a year and you get all the helicopters and 3-d printed tooth fillings. The only problem is that you can get back to public only if you get fired.

> Germans who foolishly believe that Germany is a great country to live

It's not Germans who foolishly believe these things, but all the immigrants who come to Germany over and over each year. If there were not so much immigration then the services for exams would be 1 week instead of 5 months.

> So long as the omas and opas get their pension, Germany will stay as it is for ever - there is no need to change in their view.

I strongly advise anyone who moves to Germany to start private pension scheme immediately because in 30 years there will be no pension in Germany, most likely.

> I strongly advise anyone who moves to Germany to start private pension scheme immediately because in 30 years there will be no pension in Germany, most likely.

But there is not way out of the government mandated pension unless you become self-employed. So you do have to pay into the giant ponzi scheme, while also building your own private funds.

> You are free to go private if you earn more than 60k a year

Good luck if you are married and have children, or good beware, prior health conditions. Then private will cost you waaay more than public

With prior health conditions they won't even accept you 9 times out of 10. But honestly it's not a great deal to begin with.

To clarify why it's tricky:

I was going to private long time ago and they asked me if I have some conditions. I said I have mild scoliosis and whatever and they said "No, not like that - like HIV/AIDS or Cancer" and I said No.

Some time later they said I cheated them because I did not say I have "Nasal Septum Deviation" which is whatever for me, and it is not even close to having cancer or HIV. Basically they increased my premium by ~300 EUR because of that. So be careful, make sure you say EVERYTHING that might be wrong with you beforehand to not have surprises like I had.

Of course the upside is that:

- Nobody cares if you cannot speak German

- You get appointments next day regardless of what condition you have

- You go to hospital there is special counter for you sometimes where you skip line completely

- You get best healthcare in all Europe (I think)

> And then there's the wait time for everything. Appointment for visa extension: 8 months. Driving license conversion: 1 year. German exam: 5 months. What, you want the results for your exam also? Better wait another year then. Honestly Germany is a shit show, and if I hadn't already invested so much time, money and energy into this god forsaken country, I'd be out of here in a heartbeat.

I don't want to downplay any of this and I mostly agree with your points, but as a German the only "related" things I have to do is renew my ID and passport every 10 years and I've never had to wait such a long time (I think we're due to a change in our driving licenses, but that's one time, and I've not touched mine since I got it over 20 years ago).

My point being that we're not talking everyday things. Also not sure how long you've been here, before covid I could usually get one of these appointments in the next few weeks, like.. 2 or 3, which I found pretty reasonable. (just checked online, next available appointments are Tue-Fri next week). It was really bad in 2020-2022.

So maybe it depends on your city and the exact document you need to have renewed. I'm not saying this is a great country with low bureaucracy or that we're downplaying anything per se - but I've never heard a foreign national coworker complain that much, so maybe my town was just better at this all the time?

> I don't want to downplay any of this and I mostly agree with your points, but as a German the only "related" things I have to do is renew my ID and passport every 10 years and I've never had to wait such a long time (I think we're due to a change in our driving licenses, but that's one time, and I've not touched mine since I got it over 20 years ago).

Exactly. This is precisely my point. Germans don't realize that there are such big problems for immigrants because they don't go through any of it. And immigrants can't vote, and those who can vote don't face the problem so then problem never gets fixed.

Well, you originally put this as your talking point, more of a general rant how everything sucks, and then we should assume that your pain points with immigration are the main point.

I just found https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/28347/umfrage... - which looks like a big jump (e.g. comparing to France https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/461789/umfrag... )

In a perfect world I'd assume this would be fixed slowly as this seems to be a recent trend, but I'm not hopeful.

Also I'm pretty sure there's currently no way to vote in any election that would make any process more digital and faster and less bureaucratic, so while that doesn't help you, you're not missing anything here. (Yes, the FDP and Lindner especially have ran their campaign on some pipe dreams but my personal opinion can be summed up with: lol.)

Fixing this needs a general shift of thinking first, then the stuff that is only relevant to 3% of the population (also maybe in their first few years, so even less?) will follow.

> In a perfect world I'd assume this would be fixed slowly as this seems to be a recent trend, but I'm not hopeful.

Yes, I thought the Ampel coalition's push for digitization was a great start to this. And then I read last week that they slashed the budget and pushed it back again. So I'm losing hope too.

There is still money from the current budget.

The problem is that digitalization is just one of the problems we have.

Currently we are paying billions for energy related issues, for the Ukraine war and investing lots into the military industry and in energy infrastructure transformation. We had three years covid slowing things down and creating various large problems: inner cities have huge problems keeping businesses alive (because people stay home and shopping moved to online) and there is a huge housing crisis due to large amounts of people coming germany (demand) and low building activity due to shortage of materials/labor and price increases. This all costs huge amount of money.

Germany is disrupted by the Ukraine war started by Russia and the economic boycott against Russia.

Digitalization is important, but people feared more about cold homes and about lack of electricity, than lack of public service digitalization.

That's a bit of a cop-out though, because computers and the internet have existed for long enough that we could have had something before 2014 :P

> The only upgrade is in cleaner air to breathe and safety from crime

Those are two things which are pretty far up the list of things I need to be fair.

>Every single thing is so obsolete. Nothing is digitized. Everything requires a giant stack of actual paperwork to be taken to an office where the whims of the clerk dictate everything. A million rules exist in the hopes that they cover all possible scenarios, but inevitable they don't and if you happen to have a scenario which is not covered, you're shit out of luck because the clerk is sure as shit not going to put their ass on the line and make a decision not explicitly present in the rule book.

>You pay through the nose for health insurance, but when you need to find a doctor, none can take you because their quota of public insurance patients is done for the quarter.

Just a reminder to anyone reading this: These are Germany-specific problems that don't exist in other Northern European countries like Denmark.

I live in the US and every other day I see a HN thread saying how America is terrible and how Europe is so much better than here. At the same time, you also see a lot more Europeans coming to the US than the other way around. The reality is that no place is perfect, the grass is always greener on the other side and the US, despite its problems, is a pretty darn good place to live.

By the way, I have many friends from South America who moved to Europe just to move back a couple of years later with stories very similar to what you are saying.

> I live in the US and every other day I see a HN thread saying how America is terrible and how Europe is so much better than here. At the same time, you also see a lot more Europeans coming to the US than the other way around. The reality is that no place is perfect, the grass is always greener on the other side and the US, despite its problems, is a pretty darn good place to live.

This topic is about Germany. Moreover you're replying to an Indian who moved to Germany...

> If I paid the same amount in insurance in India, I'd have a helicopter flown out every time I stubbed my toe.

Hi, I'm likely in the top 10% of top 1% of salaried professionals in India. I'd like to know where in India I'd be able to get the kind of insurance you're talking about. If it's not hyperbole, I'd love to move there. So far, I've found no insurance that's as generous as you describe. Not even close.

Thanks for sharing. I read the replies to your informative post. Sorry to see so much racism directed your way.

I’m a resident in Switzerland and my girlfriend is from south India, now also a resident there.

This has not at all been our experience. The administration has been surprisingly pleasant and efficient. From the day we applied for her residence to the day she got it took about 6 weeks. Would have been quicker if we did everything right.

To disagree is also racism now, how insightful.

No, it wasn’t disagreement with his statements that made me call out the racism - it was the assumptions about his character because of his race.

FWIW since I made my reply there has been a lot of thoughtful replies

everybody who ever stepped a foot into india knows this is nonsense. even you know that which is why you didn't leave to somewhere else.

Your case is a classic example of sunk cost fallacy

Perhaps, perhaps not. I'll get an EU passport next year. Oops scratch that the wait for naturalization is now upto two years. So I'll get an EU passport in 3 years, and then the right to be able to move to any of 27 countries at my discretion will more than make up for this time and energy I've spent here.

Sorry, but I hope you can show these countries a little bit more respect than the country that provided you with the ability to get very well paid, got you clean are and safety from crime.

And this is where the fallacy is. Indian salaries are currently actually higher than German ones for my role. And that's without even accounting for PPP. The ground reality is different from what people assume it is. The base assumption always seems to be "People are moving to our coutnry from 3rd world countries because those 3rd world coutnries are not as good as us." That's totally not the case. There are a multitude of factors and every persons personal individual decisions.

And I love how there are multiple comments about disrespecting the country that I moved to. Why? Because I dared to criticize it instead of pretending everything is awesome? Yeah that's cool man. You do know that people criticize because they care and want the system to change for the better right?

What is disrespectful about voicing his opinion on things that he considers broken or in need of much improvement? It is entirely possible that German people are too complacent or privileged to see all the issues that he mentions.

> thread with genuine complaints will be drowned in responses from native Germans who foolishly believe that Germany is a great country to live in because t

This is disrespect.

Complaining the system is OK but not attacking people.

Assume some one just says "All native Indian men are involved in harassing women/girls (incl. r-a-p.e)"

Would replacing the word "foolish" with "naive" be better? Because that's what I intended to convey. Bad choice of words there.

These people live in a bubble. Will never understand....

> Perhaps, perhaps not. I'll get an EU passport next year. Oops scratch that the wait for naturalization is now upto two years. So I'll get an EU passport in 3 years, and then the right to be able to move to any of 27 countries at my discretion will more than make up for this time and energy I've spent here.

Hope, you will come back and report here and guide Indians/expats... If it is better/worse elsewhere.

(As some Indian living in EU for about 30 years - it won't be better. What you are expecting is Ambani level treatment. Then become one )

> And this is where the fallacy is. Indian salaries are currently actually higher than German ones for my role. And that's without even accounting for PPP.

I often meet people like this in many Indian restaurants - everyone brags but even after 20 years they never go out of Germany.

If this level of greatness is true then why are you here? I can even tell you that even at this level of richness you won't

- get the clean/non-flickering electricity in India that one gets in Germany

- Even Abdulkalam got stuck in traffic.

Lol, expecting your residence permit to not take 9 months to get renewed is Ambani level privilege? Expecting to get a doctor's appointment in a couple of weeks is privilege?

> If this level of greatness is true then why are you here? I can even tell you that even at this level of richness you won't

Believe it or not, it is true. You get paid more in India if you're an experienced and capable software dev than you do in Germany (unless you're employed by FAANG in Germany). As for why I don't do it - because even though I bitch about the bureaucracy and broken infrastructure, there are a billion other things that I love about Germany.

However just because I love a lot of things about Germany, doesn't mean I shouldn't criticize those things that are horribly broken - esp. when the politicians show no signs of wanting to fix them.

> I shouldn't criticize those things that are horribly broken - esp. when the politicians show no signs of wanting to fix them.

Of course, they do criticize. Are you even reading German news or staying only in thelocal.de or facebook for information.

so many subs incl r/legaladvicegerman constantly critical of system. I dare you to be critical of Indian system.

see Oliver Welke's "heute-show". Like Jon Stewart's Daily show.

Any change takes time. You have some bad experiences. But I know so many Indians/ Filipinos in Frankfurt with great experiences. Getting even PR residency in 1 month and passport in 6 months.

I have a feeling from your constant repeat of "I make more money than others across many threads" - it seems like you want things to happen 24/7 as you have MONEY. That is wrong.

Even a skilled plumber or skilled IT giant like you are treated equally. You think you need to be invited to FAST track like first class in planes and given service. That is not here. Go to UAE or Liechtenstein or Luxembourg.

Germany works more or less for middle class. Everyone is treated equally.

Where will you move afterwards?

That or they’re omitting the positives. But it’d be a substantially less fun rant if they didn’t, so worth the perceived fallacy IMO.

If you were so highly qualified as you say, you‘d know about the sunken cost fallacy. So get out of Germany and move somewhere else you are happy.

I mean, I don’t have those problems. Without any workarounds being required. What do you want me to do, make up problems and fight against them?

So if you don't face the problem personally you don't voice out against it? You do realize how cause and effect works right? If you don't voice out and change the system this is what happens:

1. More and more immigrants stop coming to Germany.

2. Taxes and Pensions dry up.

3. Already stressed and broken infrastructure can no longer be maintained thanks to lack of funds.

4. Your quality of life (that of the guy who never faces these problems) goes down because you did not speak out and help change the system.

But yes, by all means be typisch Deutsch and stick your head in the sand. Let's see how that helps when the car manufacturing industry is long gone and Germany is the Greece of the 2030s.

Love people like you, move right towards insulting others. Maybe that’s why you have those issues. Not even going to bother arguing with people like you.

Sorry where was the insulting? You responded saying you won't fight against things that don't personally affect you, and I pointed out how things you don't think personally affect you will eventually affect you.

> But yes, by all means be typisch Deutsch and stick your head in the sand. Let's see how that helps when the car manufacturing industry is long gone and Germany is the Greece of the 2030s.

You are right, I also forget adding strawmen.

> You responded saying you won't fight against things that don't personally affect you

Didn’t say that either, but that fits with my image of you.

I'm an immigrant in India. There is curry everywhere. Everybody eats it, everybody smells like it. I hate curry. The smell, the taste, I could vomit every time. But the worst part of all this is - the vast majority of Indians think this is all acceptable and okay. If I hadn't already invested so much time, money and energy into this god forsaken country, I'd be out of here in a heartbeat.

Considering the downvotes, you probably forgot the "/s".

Even with the /s it's a paltry attempt at belittling real issues. I didn't complain that Germany was full of beer and everybody ate bread and the smell of bakeries was suffocating.

> As an immigrant (and a very well paid one paying obnoxiously high taxes),

Public services cost money. Relative to contributions to society (if you compare to the lady in the supermarket or the immigrant guy cleaning the toilets), SWE pay is what is obnoxiously high.

Sure the paperwork and bureaucracy is annoying. But India isn't exactly known for shining in this regard. At least the corruption in the public sector is magnitudes less in Germany compared to India. Things may be slow, but not because you didn't pay up, but because they are just ... slow.

The slowness has advantages too. The right wing guys will have a harder time taking over because everything is so slow. (Fingers crossed)

> German exam: 5 months. What, you want the results for your exam also? Better wait another year then. Honestly Germany is a shit show,

It's a "shit show" because you need to wait for a while for your language exam results? Your priorities are odd. There are a few thousand things higher up on my personal priority list. What about corruption? Environment? Safety? Health care? Pension? Child care? Just sitting in a street café having a latte, reading a book, watching birds sing and kids play near by, all in central Berlin, all while being safe, breathing clean air and not hearing a 7-lane highway?

> But the worst part of all this is - the vast majority of Germans think this is all acceptable and okay.

So, why is this bad then? A society that is happy with how things work, that's the dream state, right? If you immigrated there and don't like it, well, you seem to be in the minority. Perhaps choose a place that's more to your liking then.

(I'm neither a citizen nor a resident in Germany.)

I am not a german but from India. while there is lack of digitialisation but most things work fine

> So then moving to Germany from India is like stepping back into 1996.

Seriously then leave the country.

> Germany will stay as it is for ever - there is no need to change in their view.

You are attacking Germans.

- Million rules exist and if followed then it works smoothly.

- I know vast majority of Indians think bureaucracy works like India

- Assuming you are from wealthy background or software or doctor etc. They expect minimal paperwork and want the German bureaucrats to skip things. Why? because they are entitled.

- The rules are very clearly laid out. Too often people from India fill up forms like <I dont give a shit. I am invited to work in your country. So give me visa attitude>

- If you complain so much about German bureaucrats try to get your passport or any documents (like attestation) from Indian Consulate/Embassy. Unless you have power/connections etc. they delay it EVEN when you give all papers. Look all the ridiculous docx or PDF with one small line for complete address in embassy website. More over if you dont speak Hindi it is PITA.

> he vast majority of Germans think this is all acceptable

They don't. But remember many things in Germany are designed for EVERYONE. Incl. non smartphone users.

- Look at Indian railway system: If you have coding skill all tickets are booked by these people. And people that wait for booking in counters are left NO with no seats on the first day of booking availablity. Is this happening?

- Data protection. Sure in India: you dont care and upload any document by whatsapp etc. We dont.

- Language: it is painful. But why not learn? (Given the fact Govt of India wants Southern people to learn Hindi - why dont you learn German)

> health insurance, but

I call BS. How many helicopters are available for you in India for the €100 - €200 you pay in Germany. Do you know the number of celebrities from Bollywood that came to Germany to get COVID vaccine (Yes, I am in this field).

>> Germany will stay as it is for ever - there is no need to change in their view.

> You are attacking Germans.

I don't think so and I don't feel attacked.

The problem is that German politics has been VERY conservative for the last decades and also in general, the population seems very much averse to change. The younger people (younger than 50, lol) are not usually in a position of power, and maybe even in the majority not open to tech. (Look at the pixelated houses discussions with street view)

I'm still amazed sometimes that we can even have things like online banking or that SOME chores at government offices work digitally, it's just not happening and everything they try to do sucks anyway.

Anything digital Germany absolutely feels like a weird place fixated on the good old days and another problem is that every time some progress is on the horizon someone misinterprets data protection and privacy laws again and manages to sabotage progress. Or it's people who want to go the extra mile and instead of fighting so that we are allowed to bay with a card everywhere want to completely abolish coins and paper money...

So in that regard I absolutely agree with the post you replied to. The majority or the people in power don't want this to change it seems, or are too incompetent.

> - Million rules exist and if followed then it works smoothly.

They don't cover all possible scenarios. Unless you are stuck in the no mans land things seem to work well for you. If instead Beamten were given the autonomy to make certain decisions not strictly by the rule book then this wouldn't be a problem.

> - I know vast majority of Indians think bureaucracy works like India

I don't expect it to work like in India. I just expect it to work in a reasonable amount of time.

> - Assuming you are from wealthy background or software or doctor etc. They expect minimal paperwork and want the German bureaucrats to skip things. Why? because they are entitled.

Where have I ever mentioned that I want things to be skipped? And minimal paperwork is not just expected by wealthy people - it's expected by everyone. Compare Germany's bureacracy with Netherlands or Swedens and there is a giant difference, primarily because most of the paperwork is minimized to bare necessities. Just because something worked when it was invented, doesn't mean it has to be stuck to when it's now causing a lot of pain needlessly.

> - The rules are very clearly laid out. Too often people from India fill up forms like <I dont give a shit. I am invited to work in your country. So give me visa attitude>

Again not sure where you got this from anything I said. I was only complaining about time taken and inflexibility of bureaucracy.

> - If you complain so much about German bureaucrats try to get your passport or any documents (like attestation) from Indian Consulate/Embassy. Unless you have power/connections etc. they delay it EVEN when you give all papers. Look all the ridiculous docx or PDF with one small line for complete address in embassy website. More over if you dont speak Hindi it is PITA.

Whataboutism.

> - Language: it is painful. But why not learn? (Given the fact Govt of India wants Southern people to learn Hindi - why dont you learn German)

I'm beginning to think you intended to reply to someone else. I never mentioned not speaking German as a problem. If you move to a country and live there, you should learn the local language.

> I call BS. How many helicopters are available for you in India for the €100 - €200 you pay in Germany.

Okay that was exaggerating for effect. But the point stands - If I paid 300Eur a month for health insurance in India I would be given the VIP treatment if I ever had to step into a hospital.

> the VIP treatment if I ever had to step into a hospital.

This is the problem for you. You got VIP treatment in India as you say you get better than FAANG salaries. No. Whether you are a plumber or $M you wait in the same queue.

For you that is painful.

Great Schnitzel though

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