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Comment by projektfu | Hacker News Reader

There's a lot of worrying, not just in this article, about parts of the system that are largely incidental to making espresso. The important parts are the filter that allows the coffee through at the right pressure and a way to keep everything at consistent temperature. There is not much difference between a $100 pump machine and the expensive cafe machine except that the expensive one has metal water jackets to keep everything warm. They also clean easily and produce consistent steam for milk.

To me, the lever machines are really neat. It was the lever machine that started the trend in Italy, and the moka pot that made "espresso at home" a thing.

Still, extraction is only one variable. The time a person spends agonizing over temperature and pressure could also be spent learning how to select, blend and roast beans, which can be done cheaply at home using a hot air popcorn popper.

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> There is not much difference between a $100 pump machine and the expensive cafe machine except that the expensive one has metal water jackets to keep everything warm

i couldn't disagree more. there are many many differences between a cheap (100$ is cheap) machine and an expensive one. first of all, what is important is the pressure at the portafilter, not on the pump, you would say that those are the same, but they are not. second, it's important for that pressure to be stable.

other things that are important:

- temperature stability. even small things like a colder portafilter chan affect this, but what's most important is to control a fixed temperature and deliver that across the entire process.

- the quality of the filter basket (a precision filter from companies like IMS & co). this helps with consistent extraction and minimises the chance for channelling to occur.

- having a way to do a pre-infusion

- being able to change the temperature and pressure in order to accommodate various kinds of coffee and tastes

- etc (i can go on for ages with differences, like dual vs single boiler, milk vs no milk, rotary vs vibration pump etc). it's like saying a ferrari and a ford are the same because both of them have 4 wheels.

yes, you can make espresso without any of those, but saying there are no differences is not true. with skill and an expensive machine you can do a great espresso (or buy a Decent, you can do that without the skill if you don't want mess with changing variables, but still the output is great. with skill, the sky is the limit)

You’re underestimating the utility of the lever machine, namely the precision/accuracy is just as good as you can personally make it. I’ve been fine tuning my Flair technique for over 1000 shots at this point. I know the precise pressure profile I like, and I can make fantastic espresso every single time. Even in the middle of the wilderness on a propane burner.

i'm not denying that, but how much time have you invested into it and how much time do you think the average person can afford to? how much extra time do you spend for each cup compared to a regular semiautomatic machine? do you have the one that heats the brew head, because if so, that's not a 100$ machine, it's a 500$ one ( https://flairespresso.com/flair-58-first-look/ ). if not, how much extra time you add to preheat it?

how hard is for someone else from your household to do a shot with your machine?

by a very simple technique (measuring the time to run a very specific weight of output coffee) you can do great espresso on a semiautomatic machine. doing that on a manual one is much harder, but not impossible.

the sum of all of these small details is what makes the difference in pricing. what i dissagree is to put an equal sign between a cheap espresso machine and a prosumer one (like Lelit Bianca for example). don't get me wrong, i think flair makes awesome manual machines, i've sunk in the espresso rabbit hole a few years ago and i'm still not out of it :), but we have to see that these machines are for people who have this as a hobby and really love doing it.

The full process takes me <5:00 in the morning. I don't know how long a semiautomatic machine would take, but I'm lucky enough to have 5:00 minutes to spare for a generally meditative ritual each morning.

I don't have the heated brew head, but my process involves preheating the brew head while I'm "packing the bowl" (so to speak), so there is no "down time".

I brought out the stopwatch this morning, the general breakdown is as follows:

    0:00: Fill up kettle, put on stove
    0:15: pour beans into commandante (measure by acquired knowledge of how 15g looks in the device coupled with bag-specific fine tuning)
    0:30: Begin grinding
    1:15: Grinding complete, begin to disassemble and clean equipment, restore plunger position to top of brew chamber
    2:00: Cleaning complete, pack bowl while waiting for boil to finish (main bottleneck/downtime).
    3:00: Boil complete, pour water into upturned brew chamber placed on granite slab for watertight seal
    3:30: Preheat complete, transfer chamber onto device, begin main pour/press procedure.
    4:15: Espresso complete.

As you can see the main bottleneck is the water boiling. If I can get the exact right amount for the preheat and brew it will cut the time down a good bit, but if I undershoot it takes considerably longer to bring new water up to boil. An electric kettle (220v??) would help too, but I want a setup that works off-grid.

The nice thing with this setup is that it's so simple to clean that there's no time at all dedicated to long-term cleaning or maintenance. With the daily washdown which is already integrated into my workflow while waiting for the boil, I keep the machine in pristine condition. Compare that to larger equipment which needs occasional breakdown/descalding/etc. procedures.

thanks for the follow up :) i understand the meditative part, i also enjoy brewing coffee.

Reviews online indicated you need to pre-heat the Flair’s chamber and portafilter and that this is a big annoyance. What’s been your experience?

Yes you do have to, but I developed a technique to make it pretty easy. The flair videos have you using a bowl of some sort as a water container and submerging the chamber entirely, whereas I just place the brew chamber on a piece of granite. The lapping of each is sufficient to form a watertight seal, and I use the minimum amount of water possible, which is nice because waiting for the boil is the longest component of my process. All in all the preheat probably adds <1:00 between time spent actually preheating and the additional time it takes to boil the extra water needed for preheating.

That said I do prefer more acidity in my brews, so I only opt for a single flush of preheating water. Some people do 2 or even more, which would obviously take more time.

You don't "have" to - but yeah it is suggested, and I would say you should do it.

That is a massive oversimplification. There are a huge number of variables that have a very noticeable impact on the coffee. Pressure (over time), temperature (over time), flow rate, composition of the water, puck resistance (and change over time), many ways to change how the water extracts from the puck, pre-infusion time (and temp. and pressure...). This is just the machine side, ignoring beans, grinding, distribution and tamping.

And the effect of a single one of those variables can be the difference between a god shot and something that tastes rather off. I am not saying you need a machine that allows you to control all of this to get good shots, but the effect on the result is still there. Something like a Decent DE1 can actually control a lot of this, a lever machine actually allows a lot of control as well. 100$ pump machine to an expensive espresso machine is a huge difference in many regards. Consistency being probably the biggest one.

So no, I do not thing your assessment on complexity of espresso making is an accurate representation. I concede however, that if you know what you are doing, good espresso can be had on cheap-ish machines, it's just much harder and less consistent.

> There is not much difference between a $100 pump machine and the expensive cafe machine

There is, actually, a lot of differences. Expensive machines have that cheap ones don't:

- multiple (2+) boilers so you can pour 2 caps/pour cap and steam/etc

- a lot less noise

- more consistent temperatures

- preheating

- as mentioned, more consistent steamers, but also precise control over them

- built-in grinder (most of the times mediocre one, but better than none at all, albeit most people who follow this hobby just buy a separate one)

- sometimes they can be controlled remotely

- other smaller things

Most importantly, they're usually a lot more reliable and well-built.

But yes, taste-wise difference will not be substantial, its more like paying for your own comfort if you really want to invest in coffee. Hand lever brewers can be just as good for a fraction of a price if you don't mind to take extra steps. Makes it more fun for some people actually.

Moka pot is only 1-2 bars of pressure, not "real" espresso. Stronger than drip, but little consistency or control. Never turned down a cup though :)

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