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Comment by kpennell | Hacker News Reader

If you read the comments on any reel/post about cycling on Instagram, you really get a sense of how many people actually think about cyclists. I've seen comments like 'cyclists are subhuman' or other ones gets thousands and thousands of favorites. People really are in a hurry now and cyclists are just something to barely dodge for many of them. And even when cyclists get hit/killed, 25% of the time the driver doesn't stop. Cyclists (in many place) are basically sacrificing their lives to try to help build critical mass for what should be a more standard way of getting around.

Cycling is more pro-social, better for the environment, takes up less space on the roads and for parking, and also helps against the obesity crisis. It should not be so dangerous in so many places.

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There was a post on our local NextDoor a few years back where a woman cyclist was asking if anyone had seen the car that struck her while she was cycling on one of the main drags in town. She was injured and wanted to get info for a police report and insurance info. The comments were so awful that I quit NextDoor. Most of them were blaming her because she was biking - they hadn't seen anything, they just assumed that the person biking must've been at fault. I remember one said something to the effect of "You cyclists are slowing us all down! Stay off the road!". Made me realize that I live in proximity to a bunch of shitty human beings and I guess I would have preferred to stay in the "ignorance is bliss" stage of not knowing.

I remember being told something about how the pane of glass of a windscreen/display/etc has an interesting psychological effect on humans, where sort of dissociates us from the reality of the moment.

I don’t know the extent, or how true it is in reality, but from my experience as a cyclist, dealing with drivers, I’d definitely believe it. Get someone out of the car and you can watch the patina of confidence and self-righteousness slide off in real time.

Much like the internet.

I hate cyclists when I'm in a car. I hate cars when I'm cycling. And I hate pedestrians when I'm walking, cycling or driving.

I don't know, man. My experience in the Bay Area is that most people are trying to make the best of what they're in and they're usually kind. Cars will make room for me to lane split, other drivers will get out of the merge lane to make room, and cyclists and pedestrians are usually doing the right thing.

Overall, I'd say I like my fellow road users. They're kind to me generally and I try to do my best to them.

Incidentally, I also hate cars while I'm in a car.

Do you really hate pedestrians when walking? My experience is more like this oatmeal cartoon:

https://theoatmeal.com/pl/minor_differences/cutting_off

Unfortunately my experience is a bit more like a certain, crass, Boondocks clip than that comic.

> to help build critical mass...

I don't know if you did that in purpose, but Critical Mass is the name of the San Francisco cyclist advocacy group

https://www.sfcriticalmass.org

My own experience with Critical Mass in several cities in Europe has left me with mixed feelings. It’s one thing for a few cyclists in the stream to stand at an intersection and block traffic until the whole stream of hundreds of bikes has passed. But I have repeatedly seen cyclists not only block a car from passing the intersection, but begin thumping on its hood and shouting insults – and not because the car is trying to proceed, but because the cyclists are high on some sense of tribal unity. This does not boost public sympathy for cyclists, which is supposedly why we are all riding together in the first place.

The problem is perhaps that Critical Mass is a free-for-all where participants don’t have to participate in any initial orientation and be told “Please don’t be a jerk”. Any time human beings come together in big groups, that is a necessity, and cyclists are no exception.

I agree. That's why I prefer bike party vs. CM. CM feels like blocking cars for the heck of it.

yep :) love critical mass and the various bike parties (offshoot of CM). Related: https://www.harvard.com/book/two_wheels_good/ This book is such an amazing read for anyone into cycling.

Also all through Australia!

That group is terrible.

Routinely f'ed up my ability to get home as a teenager.

The SF Bicycle Coalition are even worse though, especially because they're funded by tax dollars.

> I've seen comments like 'cyclists are subhuman'

I predict a large overlap between those people and the people cheering on vigilante violence against Just Stop Oil protesters.

Ah yes, those people.

Ironic how you replied to a comment about a group of people being subhuman with pointing out that the opposing group is in fact the subhuman group. Very mature.

The problem is all the rapha weekend warriors blocking roads. I’m a cyclist and a car enthusiast and so I straddle the line between both groups. Obviously cyclists are the underdog here but they aren’t all angels.

So the thousands of uber eats drivers blocking the roads to transport a sandwich are a non issue, but a tiny number of people using the roads to go somewhere on the weekend are?

False dichotomy fallacy.

Is there safe bike infrastructure on these roads? If not, where else are they supposed to ride?

When you choose to ride in a 55+mph two-lane highway in the country side when you've got logging and gravel trucks continually passing you, I don't know. Can we consider that a death wish, no matter what the law says on paper?

These aren't commuters as it is ~40 minutes by car to the mothership and they're most often found on the nice days during the weekend wearing spandex, sometimes even with numbers on their back.

No, that’s not actually “the problem”

what is? there is no problem if you understand the way the world truly works. people drive cars. the utopian bicycle world does not exist.

“The world”—this all depends on where you live. There are plenty of places that are very bike-friendly. How do you think they got that way?

sure fine. try nothing. fix nothing. better nothing. do nothing. accept the bad.

There are lots of problems. But if you think that one of them is groups of people engaging in athletics and enjoying the outdoors, then I would suggest that one of the problems may be in the mirror…

*using roads

I ride in the road. I occupy a full lane. I use my u-lock to dent body panels when needed. There’s still a way to coexist with cars and a way to be an obnoxious rider.

Occupying the full lane is the suggested way to ride for your safety. Drivers will attempt to kill you if you ride on the side by running you in to the gutter to perform an unsafe overtake.

I've never heard of this, are cyclists in your area just sitting in the road?

Yeah honestly the bikers that I hear people rage about are the folks who ride in the middle of roads, especially uphill, and who don't even try to let folks pass. They get mad at people driving slowly like that too.

Independent of who's "right", when I bike, I don't do that, and can't say I've ever had anyone in a car angry at me.

Taking the lane is really the only way to bike safely in traffic though unless there is a ton of space for cars to safely pass.

I've see people move into the middle of the lane for an approaching car so it won't pass, and when there would've been room to pass safely.

I think these folks are the ones giving bikers a bad name by being antagonistic to prove a point.

They aren't being antagonistic, they are protecting themselves. Allowing a motorists to pass you without leaving their lane is a really good way to end up dead and is also illegal on the motorists part. They are moving over to force the motorist to pass them in a legal and safe manner.

If I'm driving well under limit due to towing, looking for address, etc - I pull over and let people pass. It's not so hard for a bike to do same.

I've also seen bikers upset when a kid is going slowly in a bike lane? So I think many of the spandex-clad dudes have some control issues.

I felt like you just ignored the point of the person replying to you. Cyclists are in more danger from passing cars when they aren't in the middle of the lane, as they tend to get run off the road. When they are in the middle of the lane, the other car needs to perform the same passing technique they would normally do (exiting the lane and getting into the oncoming traffic lane).

The chances of you getting into a wreck for pulling over getting hit in a Tow Truck is in no way equivalent to a cyclist doing the same thing. You have visibility and weight.

As a non-cyclist, ya it can be a pain in the ass, but the cyclist has the legal right to the whole lane.

Which was ignoring my point above: "I've see people move into the middle of the lane for an approaching car so it won't pass, and when there would've been room to pass safely."

At least in California the law is:

  "Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway
  at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic
  moving in the same direction at that time shall
  ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb".

I get the safely part, but I'm talking wide separated lanes here, well over 14ft with weekend warrior-types trying to swerve in front of cars after having them behind them for a mile or two (no honking or tailgating). It's ridiculous and needlessly aggressive.

I'm sure there are tons of cyclist who misue these rules and are truly unsafe. Also, the Cali law isnt as cut and dry as you stated.

"A new bicycle lane change law was approved in 2022 and took effect on January 1, 2023, across all of California. Motorists approaching or overtaking a cyclist on the road must now switch lanes if another lane is available."

https://maisonlaw.com/safety-laws/bicycle-lane-change/

Also to note:

"In certain circumstances, cyclists may “take the lane” and use an entire lane, just as a car would. Riders may claim a full lane if they are passing, readying for a left turn, steering clear of an obstacle, or if they feel the lane is too narrow to share with a car"

Once a law leaves latitude for how someone was "feeling", it effectively legalizes the practice in almost every scenario.

>If I'm driving well under limit due to towing, looking for address, etc - I pull over and let people pass. It's not so hard for a bike to do same.

Thats cool! It's also not hard for motorists to wait literal seconds to safely pass a cyclists. Cyclists shouldn't need to pull over all the time to accommodate motorists need to speed down the road. You aren't entitled to go 10 mph over the speed limit. It's a limit, not a minimum.

>I've also seen bikers upset when a kid is going slowly in a bike lane? So I think many of the spandex-clad dudes have some control issues.

Wow! You did? Crazy! It's almost like a group of people with a shared hobby aren't a monolith and will display different opinions and behaviors!

Let's imagine a country road with a windy uphill bit, such as one where you might get stuck behind a cyclist going uphill.

The speed limit is 80km/h, but through the windy bit, you can only average 60km/h.

Let's assume the rest of the time you average 80km/h.

Say the windy bit is 2km, and the rest of the journey is 38km.

This trip would normally take you 30 minutes and 30 seconds:

    ((38/80)+(2/60))*60 = 30.5

Now let's assume you get stuck behind a cyclist going uphill at an average of 10km/h during the 2km windy bit:

    ((38/80)+(2/10))*60 = 40.5

So your trip time increases by 10 minutes.

Now compare that to a typical peak hour traffic delay.

Why are people willing to endanger the lives of cyclists for what is a very mild, occassional traffic delay?

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